The seventh episode of the new ScreenSkills podcast is now live! Listen below or subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Intro
Matthew Walsh
Welcome to the Screen Skills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation. I'm Matthew Walsh.
Carley Bowman
And I'm Carly Bowman.
Matthew Bowman
And we're your hosts from ScreenSkills, the UK-wide skills body for the screen industries. But the real focus is on those working in film, TV and animation across the UK as we unpick the stories that matter to them.
Carley Bowman
Each episode, we explore different themes within the industry and speak to some of its members to discuss how it impacts both their and the wider sector's work. We go beyond the camera to get the behind-the-scenes breakdown on all things production and we hear from those making the content you love.
Episode trailer
The drive has always been, at the heart of it was because I was a very lost person who had just become disabled and had moved into this parallel universe. I was sort of unlearning as well my own internalized ableism. And for me, television was this extraordinary tool for helping change those narratives. So, I dove straight in and that was the beginning of my kind of learning around television and seeing the power of TV for telling stories and shifting perceptions around disability.
Matthew Walsh
Welcome to the latest episode of the Screen Skills Podcast. I am Matthew Walsh. You just heard a clip there from one of our conversations that you'll hear later in the episode, which took place between presenter and campaigner, Sophie Morgan, with her producer and good friend, Sarah Lazenby. The pair discuss their working and personal relationships and touch on themes around accessibility within production, the power of TV to drive change and to impact, educate and trigger wider conversations.
We're also debuting a new feature where we spotlight a member of the ScreenSkills team to share what they do and how it helps those working across the industry. Our first guest will be Bursary's Programmes Manager, Fergal McBride, who tells us about how ScreenSkills try to remove financial obstacles, whether you're starting out, returning to work or progressing within a screen career.
But first, we're going to the launch of a pioneering new study. To help us better understand the working sector, in the autumn, ScreenSkills partnered with 4Skills, Channel 4's Training and Developmental Programme and commissioned Ampere Analysis to conduct a study into the size and structure of the screen industry workforce across the UK. Now we'll hear from members of ScreenSkills, 4Skills and Ampere to discover how the pilot study will help shape future training and ensure resources are directed where they are most needed.
Just a quick note about the audio you'll hear, that was taken directly from the launch event itself and so slightly below the ideal quality, but it is just for this section only and the interview with Sarah and Sophie will be back to normal. Thanks again for listening.
Manori Ravindran
Hey, hi everyone. My name is Manori Ravindran and I'm a media journalist and I'm delighted to be moderating this. So thank you very much for having me. We have a really exciting research report to get into. We're going to be hearing from the team at Ampere analysis. They've undertaken a landmark study for ScreenSkills. I've seen the findings. It's a 90-page report and it really is quite eye opening. So, I'd like to welcome Ampere's principal consultant, Andrew Colleen. But also, I just want to note that Channel 4's Head of Partnerships and Skills, Kevin Blacoe as well, is joining us virtually. Kevin, we can see you on the screen. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining.
Andrew Colleen
So as part of this study, we have collected data on over half a million credited crew roles in the UK from almost 6,000 UK film and TV productions. That's paired with industry interviews and a workforce survey of over 1,000 respondents. And from that, we've estimated the UK screen force to be between 183,000 to 194,000. We have come up with a baseline figure of the actual credited crew. So that brings us to 160 to 180,000 individuals. UK industry further grew after 2022 following the pandemic. And that followed a 28 % rise in TV and film orders. And since then, it's fallen by 18%, which is the lowest since 2020.
That has had implications for the UK workforce. So large scale film and TV are two topics that have seen the most rapid decline over the study period. And that's as a result of budget cuts for major streamers and also a knock on effect from the Hollywood strikes. But we expected a slight uptick at the end of 2024 with the announcement of many new releases set to release in 2025, 2026. We've referenced the ONS survey data and also our own workforce survey data to break down that workforce estimate across the UK nations and regions. And we've estimated about 40 % of the workforce to be based in Greater London. So, the bulk is outside and the largest regional sources of the workforce come from Scotland, South East of England and the North West of England.
Now the composition in each of those regions will vary. For example, we saw VFX and post-production are more commonly based in Greater London, while technical roles, camera operations and lighting were much more common across the Midlands. The demographics, profile and characteristics will vary across the workforce. Here we're looking at gender, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation and regionality as reported by our workforce survey. And we found one of the major drivers behind these DEI measures is seniority, entry-level and mid-level roles over in-depth in terms of those measures.
Across our interviews, we came up with a lot of common themes. So two thirds of our interviews highlighted skills gaps still persist and that these were most common across mid to senior production and management roles. One third of our interviews explicitly discussed the importance of the current challenges behind the on-the-job training opportunities and then many also recognized the lack of standardized framework complicating the recruitment process. Similar challenges came from our workforce survey, so two thirds said that over the last 12 months it's been very difficult to find a new role and that was primarily because the lack of projects and commissions that are available in the market. One third of our respondents were dissatisfied with their career progress over the last year, and that's risen from 24 % over the past three years. And then half of our workforce expressed a desire to change role within the industry, either to a different subsector, a different genre, a different format.
In terms of skills and training, so here are the top four requested training areas. So, role specific technical skills was the most commonly selected one. And that might include any equipment, software training or standardized workflows, which will increase the proficiency of an individual in their role. And then the other three, pitching leadership and creativity and vision skills, all came in at about 25%. So lastly, just to summarize, we've estimated the workforce size between 183 to 194,000 individuals. And that's currently looking at a capacity, workforce capacity of 60%. Many challenges highlighted were the limited or challenging on the job training, and then also a lack of a standardized framework for recruiting and hiring processes.
Manori Ravindran
Laura, if you can tell us a little bit about why you commissioned this specific sort of set of research.
Laura Mansfield
Yeah, absolutely. First of all, I want to say a big thank you to Kevin and Sinead and all the team at Four Skills for helping to fund as well as to shape this research. So why did we want to commission it? I think fundamentally we know either 80% of the industry wants ScreenSkills to be able to offer more regular, consistent data. And so this is part one of that. We regard this as a foundational, but first step. It's a pilot study, so it's quite innovative in its methodology, but that should enable us to get more regular, richer data. And us and 4Skills wanted to get more of a sense of what's actually going on the ground now. So it includes VFX, animation, unscripted film, as you've seen. It doesn't include live news and live sport. So we could start to build a picture, understand skills needs, and then get to a stage where we can build regular, consistent data.
Manori Ravindran
Andrew, how do the findings reflect what we're seeing in terms of workforce challenges?
Andrew Colleen
Well, you saw there, so there's the commissioning landscape, which is the knock-on effect on production activity. So we've had that kind of hump where it grew at the end of 2022 and since has fallen. And that will have a staggered effect on the workforces. The production industry produces those commissions. The other challenges that come from that are things like the skills gap which comes up often. People get promoted very quickly, they may lack certain critical skills in particular areas. Lastly, there are differences in the workforce across nations and regions, so every sector, not just by geography but by production department and also by different types of content, will have their own types of challenges and we've hoped to cover that in our report.
Manori Ravindran
Kevin, I wanted to bring you in. How did the findings relate to the work of 4Skills and the vision that C4 has for working across the nations and regions, which of course has been quite extensive?
Kevin Blacoe
Thanks for the question. So, I think for us, the importance of this, working with ScreenSkills and Ampere on this report really came down to our own priorities as well. Last October, we announced our For All the UK plan, and that's around three main areas, particularly focused on the nations and regions. So it's about skills, it's about content, it's about people. And I think this report gets into a large degree to all of those things and provides some really sort of useful evidence to sort of understand what we're doing and what we should be doing.
The things for us that are really important are around say that progression piece for mid and senior level roles. And that's why we're doing things like our Accelerate scheme, all the importance of, you know, business and leadership skills, which I think Andrew was just touching on a moment ago and the, you know, how, you know, the work that we do at 4Skills working with the rest of Channel 4 and other organizations as well can help to address those things. So it was a real opportunity to, you know, confirm things that we thought we knew, but really wanted to evidence base but also export other areas and really have a kind of a good view of the workforce and skills challenges across the nations and regions.
Andrew Colleen
Speaker 4 (09:50)
We try to make it as regionally represented as possible across all different production categories and types, but there's still areas we can improve. And hopefully now, if going into future research with seeing some of the output of this, it will incentivize more people to get engaged.
Laura Mansfield
The more we're all doing this, the better, the richer the data. And then there's always a balance to be struck. Survey fatigue is real and as an industry, it's incumbent on all of us to try and work out how we can combat that, how we can support people, how we can enable, I think, both freelancers and companies to see the value of research that therefore can help combat some of the challenges like that.
And obviously I suppose one of the other pieces is that this is a moment in time. And, but by doing regular reports such as this, you can then start to have that kind of leading-edge piece that gives you a sense of where do those trends track over time.
Manori Ravindran
OK. Andrew, I wanted to ask as well, because obviously we all know that there is a world leading sort of talent base on and off screen within the UK. But what do you find most interesting about the findings of where the subsectors that people are sort of working in and sort of the geographic spread as well?
Andrew Colleen
Yeah, great question. So I covered it briefly there, but the report goes into more detail. So geographically, about 40 % of the people we're based in London, that has particular skews. So a greater share of VFX and post-production workers. In terms of demographics, I think we saw an over index in terms of gender representation and ethnicity representation. Across the Midlands, we saw a greater skew towards technical roles, but also different demographics in the workforce. And something that I found quite interesting was the UK Midlands in particular were twice as likely to travel to work on productions as pretty much anywhere else in the UK. Scotland, I think we saw greater unscripted workforce. So all those kind of differences make different challenges and different solutions, I suppose.
In terms of departments, there's wide ranging differences across those. So the craft department being one again, slightly more based in London, slightly more over indexed in terms of inclusion, and then areas like technical would be again, more skewed into the Midlands, but then with lower DEI index.
Manori Ravindran
Thank you. And Laura, we've obviously previously talked about the importance of mid-career level progression positions, rather. Does the report sort of tell us anything about sort of the career progression prospects there for that specific group?
Laura Mansfield
Yeah, mid-level is pretty well represented in terms of 57 % women, but there's under-representation in terms of disabled people, so 21%. So we need to be looking at how can we support people with disabilities to progress and help build their careers. And I think, again, one of the other things that you see about mid-level is that real want from the actual workforce to build their skills and to look at how they can build their own careers as well.
Manori Ravindran
What about in terms of what people are looking for around training? Does the report sort of reveal anything around?
Laura Mansfield
I think that one of the interesting things, I you know, just building on what was shown on the slides there... but one of the things that you don't see is those were the sort of top four things, you know, around those very specific technical skills for roles around wanting for leadership management ⁓ and so on. But actually the one that came sort of in, in fourth position that wasn't on the deck was AI. So there is a real want from the workforce to build those skills too. And we see that mapping into what we're hearing from employers, because those are two slightly different things where actual freelancers in the workforce want to build their skills and where employers might build their skills.
Manori Ravindran
Kevin, wanted to come to you ⁓ again just because socioeconomic diversity has been such a huge shocking point in the industry in the last couple of years. What does the report in your opinion sort of tell us a little bit about where we stand specifically within this area?
Kevin Blacoe
So I think it's really interesting when it comes to that area overall. I think it's found that from a diversity point of view, there's clearly been positive impact and progress made, work still to do, but definitely progress made in terms of equity and inclusion and diversity measures. In particular, social mobility remains a challenge. I think it's 61% of the respondents to the survey say they come from professional households and only 31% from low or sort of working class. There's clearly, you know, and again, this echoes with what we feel and understand and get from all of our other sources of information, but it absolutely feels like that, you know, there's a real priority there and know it's something that we're looking at and I know ScreenSkills will look at and other organizations as well. So, it's an area, you know, that more progress needs to be made.
Manori Ravindran
Absolutely.
The government obviously has identified creative industries as one of eight growth driving sectors that's going to be prioritized in the industrial strategy from what I understand. So skills are often mentioned as a barrier to growth. How do you think the report can actually feed into the government's strategy then, which kind of echoes a question that we talked about before as well.
Laura Mansfield
It's fantastic that there's real recognition of the importance and the growth driving importance of the creative industry and specifically of screen. But, you know, there's a real recognition of the economic contribution that the screen sector's made. So what we need to do is have really effective engagement. I think that the government will really, well, I hope... I think there will be a real value and a real interest in being... in having a really rich data set and having a really rich set of research that can then lean into some of the other research that's going to be coming through. So for example, Creative PEC are doing work around skilled audits right across the creative industries that the Creative Industry Council are commissioning and we're helping to support. And that has a different methodology, that's pan creative industry.
So the goal will be to support provide this research to help support Skills England who are putting together a real national image of where we are and where we're going. I think it really speaks to some of the things that we've been speaking around like lifelong learning, lifelong skills building, and the real need for a lot of people to have their skills supported. We can see the real value that people put on things like on-the-job training and on-the-job training programs and we absolutely lean into them in what we're doing at ScreenSkills.
The next project that we're going to be working is around entrance pathways together with the BBC, which will help inform the skills plan, but also start to really give a picture of where people are coming from around more specific kind of really granular gaps and shortages and around some of that forecasting. So those different pieces come together to help us deliver a really coherent picture. And I think as well having just some of the numbers around it is incredibly useful to get a sense of, well, for ourselves, how much of the workforce are we supporting? You know, last year we supported nearly 30,000 people. Well, that's kind of based on those numbers, that's sort of a fifth of the workforce. That's quite a lot. And it starts to give us a sense of perspective and it starts to put into... you know, for us to understand, okay, we've got I think 230,000 people registered on our platform. Well, how does that map with the overall size of the workforce? That starts to give us a sense of understanding scale and opportunity.
Who Am I: Fergal McBride
Matthew Walsh
Now we've got a new feature here at the ScreenSkills podcast called Who Am I? This is where we hear from a member of the ScreenSkills team and let them share what their role is and how it supports those working across the screen industries. We're kicking things off by hearing from Fergal McBride who tells us about the ScreenSkills bursaries and how they aim to remove financial obstacles to career progression.
Fergal McBride
I'm Fergal McBride and I am the Bursary Program Manager at ScreenSkills. Our bursaries give individuals an opportunity to apply for funding that will help them overcome a barrier to their career progression within the screen industries.
Bursaries are available to people at all different career stages. You could be someone at entry level who is looking to move into screen. You could be someone at the other end of spectrum who's very experienced or an expert in what they do but is still facing a barrier to taking that next step and we recognise that that next step can take a variety of different forms. So we offer bursaries to cover the cost of training, equipment purchase or hire, driving lessons, travel and accommodation, access support and also care costs.
Our bursaries support the industry in a number of key ways. I think it's important to note that our bursaries aren't hardship bursaries. So we're not just there looking to support individuals in need. We have a wider view on the bursaries also helping support the needs of the industry as well as the individual. If you look at our guidelines, and I recommend if you are going to apply for bursaries that you do look at our guidelines and read them also, you'll see that one of our key assessment criteria is whether or not the application is going to demonstrate long-term value to the industry through filling a skills gap or shortage area. So what that means in practice is that we want to see applications where we're supporting individuals to overcome barriers to their progression in screen and that, through their progression in screen, that's probably going to help support the industry more widely.
I think it's probably clear to everyone that inclusion and representation are really important to the UK's modern and ever-evolving screen industries. So another way in which we support the industry is that we do have a focus on ensuring that people from underrepresented groups across the UK can access the support they need to develop their careers and skills within screen.
What's really great about Bursaries is that you can see on an individual level the good that you're doing and when applicants who have received a bursary from us pass their driving test or get onto that job that they were hoping to get onto through getting a training certificate that they needed, they're normally pretty vocal about thanking ScreenSkills for that. And so the team who works really hard here, we have an excellent team, even though it's very small, really get to see that impact. And so that's really wonderful day to day to have that. The flip side of that is that there is a huge demand for bursaries. So it's not an easy process, but I would still encourage everyone to apply, have a look at our guidelines and then apply. We supported about 850 individuals last year, so we're looking at around 70 bursary awards per month. We receive a lot more than that per month, but I think that's not an insignificant amount of help to be able to offer individuals and the industry each month and I think that's really important.
In conversation with Sophie Morgan and Sarah Lazenby
Matthew Walsh
Last year, Channel 4 screened documentary, Fight to Fly, exposing the shocking treatment disabled passengers often experience when flying. Its presenter and producer join us now to talk about their time making the program and touch on wider issues around accessibility and representation within production spaces.
Speaker 1 (00:17.176)
Sophie Morgan
So I'm Sophie Morgan. I'm a TV presenter, I'm recently a producer. I'm also a travel writer and a disability advocate. So yeah, I set up a production company called Making Space Media, which partnered up with Hello Sunshine to make the documentary that we're going to talk about today.
I have been working as a host for maybe 10 years now, primarily in the UK, but I recently moved to the US and I've been working with NBC Sports. I'm probably most well-known for doing the Paralympic coverage, but a number of other shows as well. And yeah, I'm a disability advocate and I run a campaign called Rights on Flights, which was again, documented in the documentary that we made together.
Sarah Lazenby
So I'm Sarah Lazenby and I'm the Executive Vice President of Unscripted at Hello Sunshine and I run the UK office. I was formerly commissioning editor, Head of Features and Formats at Channel 4, which is where I met Sophie and where our story and adventure began. And yeah, I was the executive producer on the documentary we're about to talk about, Fight to Fly.
Matthew Walsh
Sophie, Sarah, welcome to the Screen Skills podcast. Thanks so much for making the time to be with us today. Great to have you with us. We look forward to our chat later on about your own experiences on working on productions and on particular on Fight to Fly. But first, just wanted to hear a little bit, maybe Sophie, about your TV career in general. And then Sarah, perhaps if you could tell us how you came together to make that documentary.
Sophie Morgan
Well thanks for having us. So where did it start? I guess in a way a TV career kind of started around the same time as I became disabled. I didn't really have any aspirations to become, well to be involved in television and it happened accidentally. So, I had a spinal cord injury in a car crash when I was 18. And I spent about three months in rehabilitation recovering. And when I left hospital, I was just kind of getting back into the world and adapting to life when I got a phone call from my hospital saying that the BBC were looking for participants. They were looking for contributors for a show called Beyond Boundaries, which was going to be this groundbreaking expedition on BBC Two where they would follow a group of disabled people with a mixture of disabilities as they go on this wild adventure. And in this particular series, it was going to be across Nicaragua. So I had just had my injury and I had just literally kind of got... was just getting to grips with what life was going to be like as a paraplegic and a wheelchair user when this opportunity came around and I was like, yeah, that sounds amazing! So I dove straight in and that was the beginning of my kind of learning around television and seeing the power of TV for telling stories and shifting perceptions around disability. And also, to be honest, it was a ticket for me to be able to travel the world, which I didn't really know I was going to be able to do again after my injury. I was very limited in what I knew wheelchair users could or couldn't do.
So it was a great awakening. And it triggered this idea in my mind then that I wanted to try and be in TV in some capacity or do something with TV. What that was, I didn't know. There was no clear pathway. And at the time, this was 22 years ago, there wasn't a lot of representation of disabled people on screen. In fact, I think this was one of the first shows that we ever saw, a reality show where there was just disability at the core of it. So I felt very privileged to be part of that conversation, but it didn't really go anywhere. There wasn't a lot happening at the time. So a number of people said, you should maybe think about presenting. And I thought that would be wonderful, but really nothing would happen for me till about 10 years later when the Paralympics came to the UK. And London 2012 was this huge success and Channel 4 brought in some disabled talent to front the games. And I was one of those, one of that group. So I then started presenting. I did the broadcast of the Rio Games. And then Channel 4 gave me this opportunity to sort of say, well, what are you interested in outside of disability sport? What do you want to do? What would you like to, kind of, work in? And that's when I said, right, documentary and travel and property and all the other things that I was really interested in.
And so that's kind of where it started and then it evolved and I have had a very diverse career. It's been really fun exploring all the different ways to go and what to do, mostly at Channel 4, but I did some stuff with BBC and then I worked on ITV as well for a bit. And then yes, I moved over to the US a couple of years ago and started working for NBC to do the broadcast of the Paralympics over there as well. So that's kind of where I'm at now, the abridged version of it all!
Carley Bowman
It sounds like you've done an awful lot. And now you're producing as well, you said. That's another string to your bow as well. And Sarah, so how did you and Sophie meet and tell us how that all came about?
Sarah Lazenby
So, prior to Hello Sunshine, I was working at Channel 4 as a commissioning editor and later as Head of Features and Formats. And I was lucky enough to be one of the commissioning editors looking after The Last Leg, which we were producing live out of the Rio Paralympics. And I think I'd sort of known Sophie from a few, sort of, work events, but I think that's probably where we kind of got to know each other and fell in love as I say, because we just sort of met each other and I felt like she was a kindred spirit. And Sophie, as you can tell, is, you know, she's just, she has that producer brain as well as being incredible on screen. And is just also... has got a wonderful wild spirit, which I just really love. And so yeah, we worked together on the Paralympics and then I was like, right, we need to do a show with you. What do you want to do? And we were talking a lot at Channel 4 about what kind of show we could do. And I knew that Sophie's a bit of an adrenaline junkie and I know that, you know, it's her zest for life and I was trying to... we were trying to create what that might be as a format.
And then I left Channel 4 and got this job at Hello Sunshine which was a bit of a story for another time. But it was a bit of a personal mission that I really wanted to work for Hello Sunshine because of what it stood for. It’s, you know, it's all about changing the narrative for women and that if you can see it, you can be it. And so, I sort of... in the process of getting this job, I was working for Hello Sunshine and was kind of undercover sort of thinking, because we wanted to announce with a commission. And I was thinking about all the incredible things that women could do. And I was like, I wonder if we could get a woman to space. So, then I went, I know who might want to do that. So, I messaged Sophie, who was at Crafts at the time, another show that we had bonded at when we were, when I worked at Channel 4. And I said, Sophie, you know, we were going to do something where we might go on adventure. Would you like to go to space? She went, my God, you're ridiculous. I love your ridiculous mind. Yes. Yes, of course.
So we kind of met up to talk about it and we were just talking about the process of, know, what would it be like for Soph to go to zero gravity and be able to move freely again for the first time, you know, in 20 years. And we talked a bit about it and Sophie was like, yeah, but it can't just be about me doing that. It needs to be wider. It needs to be about the disabled community. Actually it needs... because I could go to space, but do you know what life is like flying? And getting on a plane? And so we kind of birthed this thing and we were going to call it Sophie Makes Space, right Sophie? Anyway the process of it all came around and we ended up calling that Fight to Fly but Sophie Makes Space is continuing somewhere in the background but yeah, that's kind of where it all came from. And it was just a really kind of organic concept for a documentary and we started talking to Channel 4 about it. We talked to Louisa Compton at News and Current Affairs there and we were like, we're doing it whether you whether you want to make it or not.
Sophie Morgan
Come with us! We’re off on a mission and nothing can get in the way!
Sarah Lazenby
So that’s kind of where it came from.
Sophie Morgan
You know, also one detail that I think I love as well is when I realized I was like, I love this woman. You were swimming the channel to raise money for the spinal cord injury charity. Do you remember? That's how I remember.
Sarah Lazenby
I do remember.
Sophie Morgan
It’s good you remember... that minor detail!
Sarah Lazenby
But came about from the Paralympics. I was swimming at the Paralympics and I'd get in the pool every morning because it was a really nice time. The live show was at five o'clock. So, I’d get up in the morning before we went to work and I would swim a mile. And I decided I was going to do the channel, but I hadn't sort of, you know, it was like, who are we going to do it for? And this woman would come up in a wheelchair and get out of her wheelchair and get in the pool and lap me every morning. Admittedly, she was a German Paralympic swimmer, so that made me feel a bit better! But I had mornings where I was like, oh, I'm not sure I want to go. And then I just thought, oh my god, what am I doing? Of course I do. And then the opportunity came about to do it for Aspire, who are an amazing charity that do that. And so I did. And then stupidly did Loch Ness five years later for Aspire again. So, yeah.
Once you understand, I'm privileged enough to sort of... Sophie's educated me about herself and the community and actually, you know, it just, it puts a huge amount of perspective on your own life as a non-disabled individual.
Matthew Walsh
And so obviously as a member of this community, as you say, and was it your desire, as Sarah says there, to kind of open these stories to a wider public and tell the stories using a different kind of structure or framework?
Sophie Morgan
For me, genuinely, the drive has always been... in fact, the reason... so going back to that kind of origin story I shared around going on Beyond Boundaries, to the BBC and then wanting to pursue television, at the heart of it was because I was a very lost person who had just become disabled and had moved into this parallel universe, which I didn't know existed, full of barriers. You know, because I was now using a wheelchair, there was just infinite number of no's and you can't go here and you can't go there. And I was sort of unlearning as well my own internalized ableism. And for me, television was this extraordinary tool for helping change those narratives. And so I actually leant into television because I was like, one, I don't want to be ignored. I want to have a voice. I want to have a platform and I want to show people the good and bad about this lived experience. That's why I want to be in TV.
So, every opportunity I've got when it's, you know, with Sarah and I, and Sarah's like, so are you up for going to space? I'm like, hell yeah. But let's tell the broader story about what it's like to, you know, to just try and even travel as a disabled person. And so let's make a comment on that. So I genuinely had this drive to constantly, where possible, use TV to educate and to inform and to change perceptions and to just trigger conversations and all of that because we just don't get it enough. So yeah, that was very much the intention with what we set out to do. Whilst it was this big, you know, big ambition, at the heart of it was just, it's a story about somebody trying to change the world for the better because there's just infinite number of ways in which we do need to change the world for the better because there's still so many barriers. The barriers that existed 20 years ago when I first became disabled, most of them are still here, still up, still hard to overcome. The work is still ongoing. And that's why it's such a privilege to be working with Sarah and to work with, you know, to be able to like use Hello Sunshine who have the exact... their mission to change the narrative for women includes disabled women. So that's like at the heart of everything that I know I do. And I know that Sarah does as well and that’s why we’re so aligned. But to bring her expertise in storytelling and then my lived experience and to put this together, we can make something that does have the power to make change.
Sarah Lazenby
And it also, Sophie, like, you know... I mean, the greatest television absolutely is speaking about and affecting the world, right? The stuff I used to commission at Channel 4, what I'm most proud of were things like The Restaurant That Makes Mistakes, which was people living with dementia, like putting them back to work in a restaurant and, you know, how that, you know, gave them confidence. And I just think any piece of content that has legacy beyond the actual program itself is incredible. And this one was no exception because it actually also organically happened, right? So, Sophie and I had been talking a lot about working together. Then, like she says, this sort of aligned our shared missions, but it also became bigger than Sophie, right? So what happened, I remember she had talked about it. We were talking about making the documentary. We were talking to Channel 4 about it. And your batec got broken for the third time in six months.
Sophie Morgan
My wheelchair got broken, yeah, by an airline.
Sarah Lazenby
And she called me up, furious, saying, oh my god, British Airways have just broken my batec. I went, Sophie, get off the phone to me and start filming. And she started filming and recording that experience, which is now in the pre-titles of the documentary, right. Because it was really, it was it was organically happening to you, right Sophie? So and then what happened – You can tell this story now – but it kind of snowballed and the actual... the campaign happened as a result of your lived experience, but also as a result of us wanting to do this documentary. And I remember you calling me like, I don't know how to run a campaign, I don't know how to do it. And I'd done things like Jamie Oliver stuff before, like Fowl Dinners, which was to change the way of chicken farming. But it's one thing just making a TV show. It's a whole other thing running a campaign that the TV show's advertising in a way alongside it. And Sophie took all of that on her shoulders, which is just, I mean, a testament to the individual that she is, which is... but it's no small feat at all right. And so, you're... this sort of activism... or you explain it better than me and how it all kind of... yeah.
Sophie Morgan
Well, yeah, and that's it. And I think that was the beauty of what we did, but it was also the challenge of what we did. We didn't have anything planned. It was very much like Sarah's like, capture it. And then we were like, right, let's just capture it. We were figuring it out as we went. But the thing, again, this challenge was that we didn't have an end point. We didn't know what was going to happen. We were also facing an election in the UK. There was something very topical about it. We were uncovering real lived experience as these things were happening. We weren't setting things up. So, Sarah explained that my wheelchair got broken by this airline whilst we were in the process of kind of development. And what then happened was my... I talked about it on television on Loose Women, I was a panellist on Loose Women, and talked about what happened and that triggered a conversation that then started, the ball started rolling as this campaign. We just followed this amazing journey as it just ran. It honestly, was an amazing kind of year of just absolutely going for it and trying to make change and being followed as I was going.
But we also brought in other disabled people that were in my situation too, but were also facing similar challenges, but some of them were a little bit different as well. So, we did a social experiment throughout the documentary and you never know how that's gonna go, because you can't fake it! We set a number of disabled people up on a flight, setting off from different airports on the same day, going to different destinations, just to see what was gonna happen. Now you can imagine the organising of that and the way in which that had to go down. And thankfully everything went wrong, which was brilliant for TV, terrible for the passengers, but brilliant for TV.
Carley Bowman
It proved the point you were trying to make as well.
Sophie Morgan
Yeah, proved the point, you know, but that's why it was such a unique process. But, certainly to answer your question, I mean, the sharing what it's like to just be a wheelchair user and try and fly... it was shocking that it was so shocking in many ways. When it came out, the reaction was like, shock! And we’re like, no, this has been going on for a long time. But again, it shows you that you just don't get that representation.
Sarah Lazenby
Yeah, but as you say, thankfully, things went wrong but we weren't surprised. We weren't surprised. We'd done, as Sophie said, three separate flights, think seven people on each one. And we were sat here monitoring it and they were filming undercover. So, we were waiting for the bat phone to go, you know, what pushback they might get. But actually, it's so normal. It's so normal that that happens, that those experiences happen, that actually it wasn't shocking. But then the audience, I think, just didn't understand that that is the everyday experience of disabled passengers.
Sophie Morgan
And going into this again, I think... so there's a lot of statistics out there or there's a lot of... So when it comes to storytelling on disability, I kind of want to get behind those stats and get into the stories and share the real impact of what it's like to have your wheelchair broken by an airline. What does it actually feel like? What does it mean to be that person who's effectively their legs have been broken in that moment? What does that actually feel like and look like? And to capture that is the only way we'll ever change what's happening. Because that's like, it's like we've got proof now and as an advocate, I can now go to airlines and I have and say, right, watch this. Now, can you see this awful situation that you've created?
Carley Bowman
Speaker 4 (18:00.014)
Gosh, they’re really emotional points in the documentary. It's those kind of moments captured by that person.
Sophie Morgan
Evidence.
Carley Bowman
The realisation and evidence. It's like, this just shouldn't happen. I just wonder, you know, obviously you talk about the barriers in kind of all parts of life, as it were, but also, you know, as the skills body for the screen industries, are there still barriers or what barriers have you experienced actually on production and creating this type of program? You know, what's your experience there?
Sophie Morgan
That's a really tough question to answer because I think I've had the best of it in many ways. Like I said at the beginning of this conversation, I came through at a time... So, when I started, there were barriers, was glass ceilings and I kept getting pushback, you know, people saying, why would you present on this subject? Why would you? Why you? And what they were getting at is why would a wheelchair user be presenting on this subject matter? You should only be presenting on stuff to do with disability. Otherwise, you don't make sense. So, I kept getting those sorts of pushbacks. The attitudinal barriers were very prevalent. But when I then – the break, let's call it, that I got with Channel 4 – when they opened up their casting and they went, right, we're going to do the Games, we're going to do it with disabled talent at the front. I moved into an environment, and Sarah, you can speak to this, where there was an open door. And so that closed door had been opened and now we were let in.
And not only were we let in, we were encouraged, we were supported, we were trained, we were helped. We were, as I said earlier, after the Games, that wasn't the end of it. It was like, right, what do you want to do now? What are you actually interested in, Sophie, the human being, not just the disabled person? What do you want to do? So I got this opportunity, and I swear that is so extraordinary. And having just moved to the US, where that is not the case, and I've had a really different experience, which I can share a little bit about in a bit, but just to answer your question, my experience in production has been really positive. There have of course been challenges and I've had to advocate my whole way through for myself and in the work environment. And don't get me wrong, working hours, you know, trying to keep a disability, keep your disability going when your job is as demanding as we know presenting can be and to keep up and to keep going, there have been sacrifices made and challenges. I’ve got sick from some of the stuff that's happened, but those are choices I made on purpose. So, again, I find it hard to answer, because I would say I've had a really positive experience. I mean, for example, with Sarah, we were just able, she listened and asked questions and everything was done in the right way. We had an access coordinator come on to help make sure that any of the people that were working with us who were just coming in, even just for an interview, was looked after and everything was done correctly. I mean, best practice, best, best practice. But that's taken, where was that – 2024? You know, and that's taken some time.
So look, I don't want to say that my experiences have been, what's the word I'm looking for? The standard, because I don't think everyone gets that, you know, and I know it's really challenging, but I've had a really positive time, especially in the last five years. And I know the industry has a long way to go, but I think the work that people have put in, oh my gosh, is paying off. So for talent like me, I've really reaped the benefits of those things and I've advocated for myself like I said. So I think I've helped move the dial myself in small ways, But yeah, I think that... It's very easy I think to look at the ways in which... No, actually I'm gonna stop there. Yeah, they've all been really they've been they've been really good. Yeah. But I there are still barriers there, there are still challenges that talent face. And I do think it's actually more not just the built environment anymore, which presents a challenge. I think we can overcome that in obvious ways, although there's still work to be done.
I'd say it's actually more now the work ethic that we find in this industry that makes it really challenging for people. I mean, we can take... like, there's all the other barriers that come with say, for example, you know, if you're coming in this industry at what we used to call the runner level. You know, even that used to be prohibitive for people with disabilities and because, what if you can't run? It's as simple as that, but these kind of, some of the things have been updated and have moved on, but entry level access points into this industry have been prohibited for disabled people because it's not the easiest thing to do to keep up literally physically. And the skills that are required are not necessarily the ones that we have in our community. We have many, many other skills, but those skills might not be as valued at that certain point. So sometimes that becomes a really big challenge. But once I think now we're in the rooms, I think attitudes are shifting, attitudes are getting better, conversations are being had. And I think there's also a huge amount of community there to support one another, networks that you can lean on for advice, networks that you can go to for, know, things do go wrong. What do I, what are my rights? What do I need to know? So yeah, it's definitely better than it was. It's got a way to go. But I also, having moved to the States, I'd say it's world class. I don't know anywhere better.
Carley Bowman
Really interesting that you can make that comparison.
Sarah Lazenby
I think you said it to me, Sophie. So, mean, again, I kind of was at Channel 4 for a while who, know, the whole reason of Channel 4, the whole remit was, and it was set up to, you know, represent underrepresented voices. That was sort of the whole, you know, what reason Channel 4 was there. And they are, as Sophie said, they're world class, you know, in terms of leading, in terms of diversity and inclusion. And as Sophie's saying, even like now, it is about building in time because, you know, the tenacity that Sophie has and stuff like that. Sometimes it's like, actually, so your body's physically saying you need to rest and it's building in schedules and things like that. That's really true. But I think you said when you went to America, like life in America is more accessible, to, you know, restaurants and hotels are more accessible than the physical world in the UK. But the media representation in the UK is far outweigh that in the US, right?
Sophie Morgan
I think any criticism I had, I've now learnt to just sort of, I don't know, it's so... the UK in my mind is just extraordinary. Like I come back and I've watched, I'm back in the UK right now, turn on the telly and it's just, brilliant. There we are, there's representation. I mean, I don't just mean from the disabled community, I mean, and all other marginalised communities, it's just so much better. And I watch TV in the US and I work in TV in the US and it's like, we are back 20 years ago, back where I was... I feel like I'm starting again. I feel like I'm back in those, in that space of like, why would you be on the TV? Why would we have someone like you there? It's, yeah, it's a very, very far behind, I think. It makes me very proud of the work that Channel 4 has done and the work that I've been involved in here. And to be British, to be honest with you, it's one area where I never thought I'd say that, but I really do feel so proud of what we do on television with storytelling and with shifting narratives and with representation and inclusive practices. just think we, I know that we've got work to do, but I certainly think we should celebrate how far.
Carley Bowman
I was just going to ask Sarah, as a commissioner and a producer, what, you know, do you think that the dial is moving in terms of, you know, dealing with accessibility requirements on sets, access coordinators? Can you see that conversation changing? I mean, Sophie, I think you just said about how conversations are happening, you know, are they happening earlier in the production cycle, that kind of thing. So, Sarah, what's your experience?
Sarah Lazenby
Yeah, I think so. my days at the channel when it was about increasing representation on screen, probably subconsciously there was a non-disabled lens still producing that in a way. So just from schedules to budgets to not... And I think actually in Sophie's own experience of stuff you did with Channel 4, like we worked a lot with Ali Castle and her team on this to make sure that we were doing best practice, even though I was working with Sophie, you know, and Keely and Making Space Media and it is about, it's about having that representation off camera, as well as on camera to inform every decision that never consciously, but subconsciously, like... like Sophie says, I say to Sophie every day, I feel like I'm getting more fluent in speaking disability, if that’s the way that's the right phrase to say because Sophie's constantly educating me and I'm constantly... it's like flexing a different muscle in your brain because I've lived how many years as a non-disabled individual and so you just have to sort of think in a different way and it just shifts your entire perspective on your life, I'll say that for sure.
But just in terms of actually the process of making TV or just even, you know, and Sophie's actually, I've probably outed her now for this... but Sophie makes the decisions that Sophie wants to make, but actually sometimes it's more me saying, no Sophie, no, you can't do that then, you do need to have a day off when you do. But we are all guilty, aren't we, in TV? We're passionate about something, putting in those extra hours and going to those things. And I think it's just about sort of having that permission to make sure we do things with the best duty of care in place.
Sophie Morgan
I'm so proud of what we did with Fight to Fly in the way it was made with, by and for and with disabled talent because it was about a story that was so rooted in the lived experience of disabled people and that was such a... If anything, there was metrics for success for this documentary, that'd up there as one of the highest for me as like, yes, it was well received and yes, it was well watched and yes, it triggered conversations on a national level and now we're working with the government to be able to make sure that policy has changed and all these big metrics. But really one of the most important ones is that we included disabled people in the process of making this film. And that's why I think it worked so well and it was received so well, because it was genuinely done properly and authentically. I think people can tell nowadays, you know, if it's not done right. I think certainly over here, our kind of radar for that's performative is good. And I feel that here. So yeah.
Matthew Walsh
I think that goes back to one of your earlier points as well about how, what impacts great TV and great films can have on the wider conversation to improve both visibility and just wider conversations about, you know, various topics, which is great. Just to wrap up finally, obviously you’re both quite busy, what have you got both coming up and are there any other changes that you'd like to see implemented in the production sphere that would help improve accessibility?
Sarah Lazenby
What other projects we’ve got coming up?
Matthew Walsh
Yeah, are you working together?
Sarah Lazenby
Well, oh, with me and Sophie.? Do we say, we talk about that?
Carley Bowman
We'll have an exclusive if you've got one!
Sarah Lazenby
We have got something, I don't know if we can talk about it.
Sophie Morgan
It’s bubbling away.
Matthew Walsh
TBC
Sarah Lazenby
But I think it is just, know, obviously, that was a bit of a passion project. But I think we have got another piece that we're doing, Hello Sunshine and Making Space Media, which centres around, again, disabled talent, which we haven't announced just yet. But that's happening. And Sophie and I are always... But like, you've just met Sophie, like you can't... There's so much more. There's so much more for to do and say. Always more. Just because you're unstoppable, really. And a documentary can make us dream, right? This woman is real, unfiltered, speaks from the heart for both herself and everything that she feels passionate about. And I had a moment, actually, with Sophie on the documentary where we were talking about even some of the sort of ableism within the disabled community and some of that. And sort of actually I think Sophie's unique lens is, you know, it hit me one day that you were like, you know, you were approaching your 40th and you were like, you've had half your life non-disabled and half your life disabled and actually that gives you a sort of a very unique lens and I think that's interesting from a storytelling point of view actually and we went there a little bit in the documentary, didn't we Soph? I think that's an interesting concept.
Sophie Morgan
Well, and that's where hopefully we'll be doing more... we'll say when we can. What missions am I on? Well, yeah, yeah, lots of missions. Do you know what though? Okay, and to answer your question, what more would I like to see? I don't think we can ever see enough storytelling from the disabled community. Like Sarah said, there's like, you can mine all of us for so much content and it's all unique lenses and there's so many interesting stories and they just... Like I set up Making Space Media with Keely Catwells, who's my business partner. we just like, there's so many stories from our community we want to share, but to what end, you know? And it's got to be done in this way that's like, right, intentional storytelling with impact driven behind it. Like what can we, what do we need to change and how do we do it?
And I don't think there's any better place to do that than the UK. I think we have this amazing ability to tell stories in ways that can change the world. I really believe that. So yeah, I think what I'd like to see more of is similar. Let's replicate all of the Fight to Fly documentaries, just one of many, many that needs to be told. And always do it with disabled talent as well, or whole range of talent. Think outside the box. You'll find more stories outside of the box. So yeah. That's what I'd like to see.
Carley Bowman
Amazing and absolutely delighted to hear that you'll be working together because you two clearly have such a bond with loads and loads of energy that's kind of coming through to us. whatever you do, it’ll be amazing. Can't wait to hear about it.
Sarah Lazenby
AKA, we don't stop talking!
Sophie Morgan
It's to be half an hour, wasn't it? I love it. Good luck.
Carley Bowman
Yeah, I know, I know. Thank you so much for your time. It's just been an absolute joy. Thank you very much.
Matthew Walsh
Thank you both so much, thank you.
Outro
Matthew Walsh
So that was it for this jam-packed episode of the ScreenSkills podcast. Thank you so much for listening. And if you want to explore more, which there's plenty to do from this episode, you can find more as ever at the ScreenSkills website, where the Ampere research about the workforce study is now live and hosted on the ScreenSkills website.
If you want to find out how to make productions more accessible and inclusive, then you can visit our eLearning page where we have dedicated free online modules all about how to implement practical steps and what actions you can take to make productions as accessible to everyone as possible. We also host the TV Access Projects 5A's about making your production spaces more accessible, as well as an introduction to Accessibility eLearning module. And if you want to find out about all the financial support that ScreenSkills offers, how to apply and what costs they can cover, visit ScreenSkills.com/bursaries. Big thank you to all of our guests for today's episode and thank you for listening and we will see you next time.
Carley Bowman
This has been a ScreenSkills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation hosted by Matthew Walsh and Carly Bowman. It was produced and edited by Gabby Sharrock and marketing by Natalie Tando. The design and imagery was created by Gabby Sharrock.
In episode seven of the ScreenSkills podcast, launched in partnership with The Adobe Foundation, we explore disability, data and defining the screen workforce.
On the back of the pioneering ScreenSkills and 4Skills study into the size and profile of those working in film and television across the UK, we hear from those behind the research at its launch event in London. They discuss how the data was formed and what impact it will have on future decision-making, policy and investment for the industry.
We're then joined by Sophie Morgan and Sarah Lazenby, presenter and producer behind hit Channel 4 documentary, Fight to Fly. The pair talk about their on and off-screen relationship, share their experiences of accessibility on productions and the importance of representation in front and behind the camera.
The episode also include the introduction of a new feature, Who Am I, where we speak to a member of the ScreenSkills team to learn more about their role and how it helps support those working in the screen industries. For its debut outing, we hear from bursaries programme manager, Fergal McBride, who tells us how ScreenSkills bursaries aim to remove financial obstacles to career progression.
Discover more
Find out more about the workforce research
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Learn more about accessibility in production
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Find out more about ScreenSkills bursaries