The eighth episode of the new ScreenSkills podcast is now live! Listen below or subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Intro
Matthew Walsh
Welcome to The ScreenSkills Podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation. I'm Matthew Walsh.
Carley Bowman
And I'm Carley Bowman.
Matthew Walsh
And we're your hosts from ScreenSkills, the UK-wide skills body for the screen industries. But the real focus is on those working in film, TV and animation across the UK as we unpick the stories that matter to them.
Carley Bowman
Each episode we explore different themes within the industry and speak to some of its members to discuss how it impacts both their and the wider sector's work. We go beyond the camera to get the behind-the-scenes breakdown on all things production and we hear from those making the content you love.
Thanks for listening to this episode of The ScreenSkills Podcast. We are dedicating this episode to all things mental health and wellbeing in the screen industries. That's because we're marking Mental Health Awareness Week, which was earlier in May. And we've got lots coming up, Matthew, haven't we?
Matthew Walsh
Yeah, that's right. We're speaking to a range of people working in that space across the screen industries. And we're kicking things off with a really interesting chat we had with Letitia Nneke and Annika Hagemann, who both used their experience of working as producers across TV and unscripted and really using their knowledge of the sector to help shape and deliver training and workshops about how to make production spaces as mentally healthy as possible, the importance of establishing duty of care essentials and opening lines of communication.
Carley Bowman
Yeah, and it's really good to hear from them because also they've taken part in ScreenSkills training programmes in the past. So it's really nice and we thank them for giving back and talking to us today about the work that they've been doing. We also talked to Andy Glynne, who's from the Film and TV Charity, because they have the Whole Picture Toolkit, which is a free resource for productions to use to create that mentally healthy work environment for freelancers. And they're very attuned to kind of the particular pressures for freelancers in the screen industries.
Matthew Walsh
We also spoke to Sarah McCaffrey who tells us about her journey from training as an actor to becoming a qualified therapist and using both of those experiences to found Solas Mind and create bespoke therapeutic support services to studios and crews.
Carley Bowman
So, Matthew, there's lots to come. We encourage people to listen through and pick up lots of tips in the interviews along the way. But should we kick off with Annika and Letitia?
Matthew Walsh
Yeah, let's do it. And let's hear about taking five minutes for a quick hula hoop lesson.
In conversation with Laetitia Nneke and Annika Hagemann
Annika Hagemann
I'm Annika. I work as a producer in documentaries and now, most recently, in podcasts. And I've also delivered workshops for ScreenSkills and also taken part in their courses, which have really benefited me.
Laetitia Nneke
I'm Laetitia. I'm a series producer. I've been in the industry now for about 20 years and I work across a variety of different genres. I also offer training for ScreenSkills in terms of casting and contributor care and also with Ofcom training as well.
Matthew Walsh
Annika and Laetitia, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of The ScreenSkills Podcast. Really great to have you here. As we'll discuss more later, you've both delivered training specialising in areas of mental health in the screen industries, but you've also both worked quite heavily and still do on the other side in production yourselves. So, I was wondering if we could just start with both of your journeys into those spaces and what areas have you specialised in, how it came about and your screen career so far?
Annika Hagemann
Laetitia, do you want to take it first?
Laetitia Nneke
I will go first. The beginning of my journey was very much working in casting in big shiny floor entertainment shows. Then that led me into factual entertainment and also into documentaries. And what I've specialised in, although they are different genres, is stories where we're looking at big contributor-led sensitive topics. And so that's very much led me into welfare and safeguarding and compliance when it comes to contributors.
About five years ago, I did the ScreenSkills Series Producer Programme, and that was a brilliant opportunity for me in terms of broadening my network within the industry and also really getting those skills in terms of leading a production, managing a team. A big area for me has been casting. That's been one of my specialities. And that's where I think we've seen a massive change in the landscape over the last sort of 10 years. There's been a wider conversation about mental health nationally in terms of mental health in the workplace and welfare in the workplace. And I think that's coincided really with some of the headlines that we saw the last four to five years of high-profile TV programmes and how contributors have felt on those programmes and also how crew have felt on those programmes. And so for me, that's been an opportunity to really interrogate the processes that I've been using on productions and that's led its way into training that I now offer for ScreenSkills.
Matthew Walsh
Yeah, so it's quite a natural progression from one side to another, working in production yourself and having that experience and taking those learnings into the training that you now deliver.
Laetitia Nneke
Absolutely, and I think because when we work on productions, they are invariably quite live and problems happen on shoot, problems happen on location, problems happen in the edit, particularly when we're looking at how the cast are affected by issues on the programmes and that invariably also affects the people that are working on them as well. So it's very much about what are we doing in terms of our protocols and what are we doing in terms of the procedures right from the very beginning of production and how can they make for a safer, more positive, more calm workplace.
And I think for me, one of the biggest notes about welfare or mental health is what are you doing right at the very start? It's not so much something to be looked at once as an issue. It's more about creating a holistic approach. So right from the very beginning, what is the framework that you are designing on your production that benefits not just the cast, not just the contributors, but also the crew from the very beginning levels? And so it's embedded in at every stage of the production.
Matthew Walsh
And Annika, like Laetitia, you share a space both in production and this mental health delivery space as well. that kind of reflect your experience of it?
Annika Hagemann
Yeah, immensely. I think it's really nice to hear you say that, Laetitia, because that's exactly the experience that I went through and what propelled me to want to have this roundtable talk that ScreenSkills organised. And this was all based around a seven and a half month shoot on a warship. So it was very extreme on location and very uncharted in many ways. I had no idea what was kind of coming at me, which, you know, that's kind of what was interesting about it.
But with reflection, we would have benefited so much from a framework and infrastructure around mental health policies and welfare policies. And those things, you know, we have these things on paper through risk assessments and conversations that happen in the pre-production phase. But then when you get thrown in, it very quickly just becomes real life and can easily get swept under the carpet. It's very hard to action anything without knowing in advance what the protocol is.
So, I think when you're working in small crews, that's very, very quickly the case where everyone's just pitching in and you get absorbed by the project. You inevitably neglect those areas. And so that's something I really wanted to drive in the talk. So sharing my experience, but then also getting other people to share so that we can come up with ways that can be prevented in future. It's hard though. It's very easy to put protocols in place, but then much harder to action them when they do happen.
Matthew Walsh
But you've both mentioned the importance of trying to embed practices or caring and welfare right at the beginning of productions, when it comes to pre-production. Do you think the general awareness about the importance of welfare and mental health helps these conversations start as early as possible in the productions?
Laetitia Nneke
Absolutely, because when we sort of look at the last 10 years, mental health wasn't massively talked about, let alone in the workplace, for a variety of different reasons. But these things go hand in hand. And one way to look at mental health in the workplace is just creating an environment where people feel safe, comfortable and secure. And so that is something that should be talked about. by the nature of the world of TV and the productions that we work on, they can be quite stressful environments.
So that's something that should be drawn up from the very start. And I know some productions now have this wonderful thing of - a mental health assessment for the actual production – so identifying what those risk factors are for your production. And every production is so nuanced, but whether that's the fact that crews will be working long hours or the types of contributors that you'll have, or the tonality of what you're talking about, whether it's something sensitive, whether it's something quite controversial. So what those risk factors are for your production, it's about making sure that from the very top and from the very beginning, you've outlined those.
And then you have practices in place that can really mitigate against those risks or just support the team because you know those risks are coming. And as you said, Annika, we would never know exactly what issue is going to happen until it happens because our productions are live and they're growing and evolving as we work on them. But what you can have are things that are implemented for worst case scenario.
And that's the whole point of having a risk assessment, whether it's for location or whether it's for mental health. So it is massively important.
Annika Hagemann
One thing I just thought of was when I did that ScreenSkills Producer Director course... Nick Guthridge was leading that and he was sharing his experience as well, working as a producer director and just saying like how, you know, we used to have crews, we used to have more resources on location, now often it's just one person. If you're lucky, you have an AP with you.
And, for me, it was nice to hear that because when you're in a small crew, you do feel that level of responsibility and the pressure. You obviously have the support from the team, but when you're on location, it can be quite lonely and it can feel like there's a lot of pressure. I think what you were saying about having a mental health assessment is so important and actually just making sure that people are actively stating when things are going wrong so that they have that support.
Matthew Walsh
You both mentioned that you've delivered training for ScreenSkills in these areas around duty of care and welfare and working in hostile environments, particularly suited to those working in the screen industries. Laetitia, you said you work in front of the camera as well. So would you just like to speak about those particular trainings that you deliver?
Laetitia Nneke
Yes, of course, I deliver sessions on contributor care and welfare around that, which I think is massively important and is quite a topical point at the moment because we have seen headlines where contributors have talked about experiences on television programmes. And the big takeaway message that I think about is how proper duty of care practice is part of the production, again, right from the very beginning. Before you signed off a contributor, or on day one of filming, or you're on location, it's about when you're casting for people, are you getting the right people who are right for the world of your programme? Because we often ask a lot from contributors. Whether that's physically, mentally, emotionally, if they're sharing their personal stories with us, or if they're doing some sort of extreme action adventure that they wouldn't do. They're only doing this now because they've applied to be on our programme or we've cast them onto our programme.
So as a result, we need to provide that support for them. So right from the beginning, I think that is a casting risk assessment that we do. So, Ofcom themselves have got brilliant guidance on this, which is really sort of formalising what a lot of production companies do anyway, from the very beginning. And that's mental health and welfare checks on contributors, secondary checks on contributors, speaking to friends and family, and really making sure that you've got the suitability for the right cast for the programme that you're making.
Matthew Walsh
And Annika, your training was working in hostile environments and building up resilience.
Annika Hagemann
Yes, so it was that roundtable talk and then I did another one which was around working more in an AP role in remote locations. So working especially in that kind of job role and how you can make the most of it and best support your team, your director. And I think I would call them less of a training rather than an exchange of ideas.
I did do the workshops two years in a row and it was interesting to see how it evolved because I did the shoot in 2021 where the world was still really grappling with the pandemic and then the following year as well where the industry was really going through a big change. So I think the main theme of the workshop was really about resilience in a really small team and how you can build that for yourself and just drilling in the personal accountability you need to have to sustain yourself through a long shoot on location and how to communicate that effectively to your team.
So it was really about that and exchanging ideas, which also benefited me a lot because I think it's just very cathartic when you can be in a room with people and just talk about your past experiences and also help people going into these long shoots. Because as Laetitia said, you cannot foresee what's going to happen. That's part of the adventure. Much of it was about setting those personal boundaries for yourselves to keep a work-life balance when everything is work.
Matthew Walsh
That idea of sharing ideas as well and coming together, both in groups and production spaces and the industry and people sharing their thoughts and experiences, that's a really interesting point. And I wondered if you've gained any new insights into the area since being on the other side and at the forefront of training and workshop and leading these guides. Have you taken anything on board from that that you didn't necessarily realise beforehand?
Annika Hagemann
Yes, on board is a good pun. I sadly didn't take it on board. I should have done the workshops before. I think just the idea of sharing and community in our industry is really, really important, especially now where there's so many people who are out of work and it's just, we're still in a crisis. I think just having that space to speak about your past experiences, where you are now, that in and of itself is essential.
And organisations like ScreenSkills and the Film and TV Charity do really well in fostering that. So I would urge anyone to partake in as many of those sessions. So that was one element. And then the other was learning how much I didn't know going into the experience. I had lot of naive optimism going in and that's good to a degree.
But then on the other hand, it's always good to be better prepared for the future. I think things like clarifying what welfare practices are in place with your line producer or whoever is looking after the crew is really, really important. Going through the risk assessment in detail, not just taking it, putting it in a binder and kind of going through it while you're on the bus to the ship. But taking that really, really seriously and actually logging things as they happen and maintaining awareness through the shoot.
I think people are attracted to location shoots because they are intense and there will be a lot of highs and a lot of lows. That's part of the appeal. But the important part of that is learning how to stay grounded and how to continue to prioritise your personal life and your personal needs because everything is enmeshed. It’s one of those examples where the workplace becomes more than the workplace. It’s kind of like an intimate relationship you have with your team because you have to share about, kind of want to be able to share your emotions in that way. So I think it's an interesting, interesting discussion as to how and where that line is, how much support and how much responsibility should the production teams take for people's mental wealth.
Laetitia Nneke
The boundaries, as you say, they do get quite blurred in terms of work life. There’s a saying that went around during COVID, living from work, when a lot of us were working from home, because you do spend so much time working. To agree with what you're saying, that's part of it, isn't it? Being able to maintain those boundaries so that everyone feels safe and secure.
And the other thing is, there isn't necessarily a complete right or complete wrong. You know, it's about working in best practice because it's going to look very different for each individual person.
Matthew Walsh
Yes, the unique kind of environments that production spaces are. Do you think those kind of pressures and like you say, living for work, for example, can impact the mental health more so perhaps than other industries?
Annika Hagemann
It's hard to compare to other jobs. The famous line is just telly, I would say it absorbs you in a way that maybe other jobs don't. And I think it attracts people possibly who want that. They want to be emotionally, cognitively stimulated in that way. So I think that comes with amazing pros and then also the con of needing to find the boundary for yourself.
Inevitably the hours are much longer. It's not a normal nine to five gig. So I think exhaustion, burnout, all those things, kind of creep up on you. Especially now, it's so hard to even say how this is going to impact us in the next few years, but we're losing so many people in the industry and there's a huge talent drain right now. So I think emotions are really high in general right now.
Matthew Walsh
It touches on what you were saying earlier about the importance of building resilience within the workforce themselves and the production spaces and the crew. Those kind of soft skills which aren't as tangible as learning to work with a piece of equipment, for example. How do you foster those skills in a workforce or encourage behaviours that would help them deal with issues that might affect resilience?
Laetitia Nneke
I think a big one is having open lines of communication. Lots of problems can grow and fester if people don't feel like they are safe enough to raise red flags or don't feel like they can say something without a fear of some sort of comeback. So feeling like the culture that you're working with is happy to have that sort of transparency and honesty and that comes from the top, from the execs and so forth.
I've worked for production companies who've had honesty boxes, which is an anonymous system to flag any issues that might come up on production. You don't have to say what your name is, but you can absolutely flag the issue. So it's little things like that. People knowing that there is somebody on their team or a designated person that they feel that they could go to and talk to.
Annika Hagemann
Yes, completely agree. I like the idea of the honesty box. I think there's been a lot of growth and improvement in this, but from my experience, I think it's nice to see when there's a really good communication channel between the management team and the crews and that there's a really thorough understanding from both sides as to what they do because I think often it can get quite siloed. That's when the communication starts breaking down because there isn't that thorough understanding of the project on both ends.
Matthew Walsh
Were there any other tips or pieces of advice that either of you would pass on to others at any level working in the screen industries?
Laetitia Nneke
Finding or being active in your own mini community is one that I've appreciated. You mentioned, Annika, that it can be very siloed. You can work alone or work with a set of people for a long time. But if you have a support group outside of that, a network, and that's one of the nicer things to come out of our community within COVID. All these networks started to sprout out, mini groups within TV. So if you could find one that speaks to you, an area that you can share, you know, how tough a day has been or a particular challenge that you've got at work and you've got people who have been in a similar situation that can help or guide you through it or just be there to listen. I think those sorts of things really help. Finding your community within our community.
Annika Hagemann
I think now, especially in a time of crisis, there's so much potential for so many more discussions around these topics of mental health. And the fact that we're doing it now as a podcast, that's great. And yes, just finding support like the Film and TV Charity. They do amazing work with offering urgent support and ongoing. The fact that they have an office where people can work in if they need to is great. All those things.
And then I would say, from a basic point of view, very intangible, is knowing your own boundaries as a filmmaker. Respecting yourself and your own needs on location. That can only help you because it'll just improve the communication.
That was something that was more related to my talk for APs. Because I think when you're in that role, you're really, really committed and you are pretty much carrying a lot of the logistical burdens and you're in that phase where I think you might be taking on too much than is needed. So I would say, yes, with a good team around you, just encouraging really good open communication.
Matthew Walsh
Sound advice. And if just quickly for our listeners, if they wanted to reach out to you or get any information on anything of the training or workshops you deliver, have you got a website anyway you'd like to direct them to?
Annika Hagemann
I think Laetitia's the one, because I don't have an ongoing one right now.
Laetitia Nneke
I don't have one but I would just say though, I’ve just had a thought, I would always recommend a hula hoop break. I know that sounds mad. If you have go to Argos, get a weighted hula hoop. When you're really massively busy on production, in the edit, whatever, if you're doing long hours, you can always find time for like a five minute hula hoop break. Massively helps. I started it during COVID and I just wanted to put that out there, hula hoop break. Or running, or whatever it is, but a hula hoop break is also very fun.
Annika Hagemann
This is the secret actually we've been waiting for….
Matthew Walsh
I don't know what it says about me, but my brain went to crisps when you said hula hoop.
Laetitia Nneke
No, no, no! I suppose you could do that as well. But yes, you probably could do that as well. But a hula hoop, sorry, that you can spin around your waist if you can do that for five minutes. Schedule it in, break yourself away from your laptop, away from the screen and just have a hula hoop break. Come back to it. Your mind will feel absolutely refreshed. New energy.
Matthew Walsh
Right, well you'll see that instilled in the ScreenSkills offices!
In conversation with Andy Glynne, Film and TV Charity
Matthew Walsh
We're now joined by Andy Glynn from the Film and TV charity to tell us all about the Whole Picture Toolkit.
Andy Glynne
Hello, I'm Andy Glynne. currently working at the Film and TV charity. My role, which I will clarify a bit later on what that means, is Head of Development for Mental Healthy Production.
Matthew Walsh
Thanks Andy for joining us today to discuss all things Whole Picture Toolkit. If you could just give us an overview of what the Whole Picture Toolkit is and how it can help support better working practices behind the scenes.
Andy Glynne
Right. Well, apologies, I'm going to have to give you a little bit of history lesson here to give you context of where it came from. So some years ago, the Lancaster University in partnership with the Film and TV Charity, did this thing called Looking Glass Research, which I know you've talked about. And when that came out, I think it was a shock to everybody. It was a snapshot of mental health in the industry. And what came back is how bad mental health was.
So back then, I think the research said that two-thirds of film and TV workers had experienced depression compared to two in five people nationally. There was a prevalence rate of one in four people having poor mental health generally in the general population. If you have a job that goes down into one in five. So jobs are a protective factor. If you worked in film and TV, it's nine in 10. So the data was awful. And out of that came something called the Whole Picture Programme, which I was the programme director of. And the Whole Picture Programme, it helped set up the support services including the bullying support line, which we can talk about later.
But one of things it set up was the Whole Picture Toolkit, which back then was meant to be an online resource to help people embed mentally healthy practices on their production. And it still is that. But I think we never envisaged both the success and the take up of that toolkit and the potential of what it can become. So what we have known is that loads of productions have used it. Loads of people have found it really useful.
There are some limitations with its current format and that's why we want to work on creating something new which I can talk about later which is the Mental Health Productions Programme.
Matthew Walsh
You mentioned there some of the successes of the toolkit already. Would you be able to share any more details about the impact it's had and the productions that have taken it up?
Andy Glynne
When it first came out, we did a loose pilot of it in which we refined what the toolkit was. But since that pilot finished, which is a few years ago, we've had over 300 productions who've now used it. That's cross-genre. So that's feature films, it's high-end drama, it's entertainment, it's documentaries, it's natural history, it's big massive sporting events. And we've made sure that it can be used in as many different settings as possible.
So, just to give you an example, some of the companies that use it have been 72 Films, Raw TV, Mindhouse, Lenten Pine, and those companies specifically all started off using it with one production, and now they've rolled it out across multiple productions and found it to have a really positive experience. There's loads of productions now that are currently happening. There's The Predator Next Door, which is true crime, there's BBC Boy Bands Forever, there's Sky Arts doing The Last Music of Auschwitz, and it continues to be picked up by loads of productions.
And that's without doing loads of specific marketing. It's simply about the goodwill of the commissioners and the broadcasters and the financiers, and also about some of the engagement we've done with production companies who want to use it again and again.
Matthew Walsh
You touched earlier on some of the work that the Film and TV Charity has done previously that inspired the production of the Whole Picture Toolkit. How does it work alongside and possibly complement the charity's other wellbeing services?
Andy Glynne
So the Toolkit, if you like, is a prophylaxis. It's aimed at being embedded on productions to be proactive in addressing poor mental health and allowing productions to be more mentally healthy places. But there's lots of other stuff that's more reactive that we're doing. So of course, as you well know, and as is on all the call sheets as well these days, is our 24-hour support line.
So anybody anywhere within the industry, whether they're freelance or staff, can ring our 24 hour support line and they can have an initial chat with someone about anything they're experiencing. From the support line, which effectively acts as a triage, you can then be referred or you can directly refer yourself to things like our bullying service, which offers bullying advice and a bullying support service, which is predominantly for people who feel they are victims of bullying. But by the way, there are also people who feel a lot of distress when having an accusation levied at them that they are a bully, and we can offer them support too.
We're also offering things like well-being tools, stop-gap grants to help people. And the idea is that we're looking after people's mental health, we're helping to look after their financial health, we're signposting them to free legal consultation or legal help if they need it, and trying to have this package where we're holistically looking after people.
I think there's an agenda with mental health to create parity in the industry between how we look after people's physical health, both in terms of physical health and safety and being responsive to physical disability and physical needs, but now creating parity with mental health so it's treated equally by the industry.
Matthew Walsh
Like the industry itself, the Toolkit is constantly evolving to respond to the changing requirements. How do you think it will be adapted in the future and what's likely to be next? You've obviously mentioned the mentally health productions.
Andy Glynne
That's a really good question. So the talk is great. It's fantastic. But as with anything, when you first bring it out, you refine it and you realise that there are some challenges and to make it better. When we saw how widespread the take up was, I think we did a lot of talking to the industry and we felt that what the next step was a set of standards or principles that clearly define the minimum you need to do in order to make a production mentally healthy.
Now, when we socialised people to the original Toolkit, we talked about how great it was, we talked about how accessible it was, we didn't really talk about one's legal obligation. There's a very clear legal obligation that people now have in order to, well, have always had, but it's becoming increasingly important to make productions mentally healthy. So we're trying now, we're in the final processes of getting the industry to sign up on effectively a set of nine standards. And those nine standards are key areas in which you can really embed good mental health.
So for example, talk about the importance of leadership, the importance of relationships on productions and how you deal and respond to bullying and discrimination and harassment, how you might deal with something like sensitive content. So if you're on a production where there's lots of sensitive content, for example, true crime, how do you mitigate the effects that that can have on everybody on production? Ranging from a researcher who's having to look at stuff that's triggering or causing some kind of trauma, or the potential to cause trauma, through to the editor who's stuck looking at the same footage again and again and again. How do you ensure that people feel psychologically safe when they're looking at that kind of content? Through to things like, how do you off-board someone a nice way? How do you do exit interviews and ensure that you're able to give a freelancer lots of feedback so they know what skills they need to continue to next time and what they did well and what were some of the challenges on the production they were working on.
So, a set of standards which is imminently about to be agreed on by the industry. And when that set of standards exists and shows people the minimum they need to do, we're also creating, if you like, a digital product that allows people to use those standards in a quick, easy and accessible way. One of the challenges we found with the Toolkit is it can feel quite overwhelming to people. It's a big website. There's a lot of information there. So what we're doing over the next 12 months is allowing people to simplify the ask, to make sure that it's easy, it's accessible. It's almost like checklist format, but that it works for every production so that anyone who's doing a production can look at exactly what they need to do to be compliant with the law and compliant with best industry practice. To have easy and accessible, quick things they can do to really embed good mental health.
Matthew Walsh
Following on from that, there does seem to be an increased awareness around the importance of mental health and embedding certain wellbeing practices across the screen industries. What do you see the role of the Film and TV Charity and the future of the Toolkit in playing and driving meaningful change for people in the film and TV industry?
Andy Glynne
That's a really good question. I think, first of all, we're all coming from the place where obviously we want to change the industry and make it a better place to work and a better place to be in. We want people to feel that they want to stay in the industry. And already we know, by the way, that the metric on wanting to stay in the industry and feeling it's a mentally healthy place to be has gone up for those productions using the Toolkit. So our aspirations are being proved in the evidence. We need to realise that, one, we're not going to change the world overnight. And two is that the Mentally Healthy Productions Initiative and the Toolkit is only part of that parcel.
We need a wraparound approach and that includes some of the services I've mentioned, but it also includes two extra important things. One is leadership and building up the capabilities and the skills of senior leaders and managers. If you can't set the agenda and set the tone from the top down, then some of this other stuff might not work. So it's really important that we engage with those people who are in charge of productions to really set that tone, to really set the agenda of what good looks like.
The other thing as well is broadcasters. So much as we can embed good mental health on production, the kind of elephant in the room sometimes is that if you're looking at contracted schedules and small budgets where stress is a natural consequence or inevitability, then sometimes looking after mental health can go out the window and we need to ensure that doesn't happen.
It’s about creating conversations. Conversations between indies and broadcasters and trying to look forward to more of a joint or shared responsibility between both of them in terms of good mental health. And that's really important to realise that it has to be a concerted, shared effort amongst everybody in the industry.
Matthew Walsh
And the industry, I suppose, is predisposed to some unique pressures that aren't faced in other industries and working habits are often quite different. So it's really important to highlight the effectiveness and the positive results that the Toolkit has seen in working in these spaces. So just to close up for our listeners who want to find out more or actually take part in the toolkit themselves, where would you direct them?
Andy Glynne
They can go to the charity, if you go to the Film and TV Charity website. You can also Google Whole Picture Toolkit and it will come up straight away with a link. The important thing is that we have a whole team of engagement producers wanting to help people. So if you're an individual who needs support, by all means contact the support line. If you are a producer or a line producer or anyone working in production or editorial within a production company who wants to find out more, then get in touch and we will talk to you and we'll help you along the journey. So it's not like we're just going to give you a link and tell you to get on with it. There's a big process that we've refined over the past years of ensuring that we're really, really helping productions embed good practice into their daily routine.
Matthew Walsh
I think those collaborations and communication lines are really important as well. That's a really nice place to wrap up. So thank you very much for joining us, Andy.
In conversation with Sarah McCaffrey, Solas Mind
Carley Bowman
Now here's our interview with Sarah McCaffrey. She's a trained psychotherapist and she's the founder of Solas Mind.
Sarah McCaffrey
Hi, everyone. My name is Sarah McCaffrey. I'm a counsellor psychotherapist suicide prevention trainer. I've always worked in and around the creative sector. I started off my career as an actor, which was fairly short lived. Then I worked in production training, while also training to become a counsellor. And my company is Solas Mind, which is probably the first bespoke mental health company designed specifically to support people within the creative industries and it's lovely to be here today.
Carley Bowman
Thanks so much, Sarah. Thank you for joining us. It's great to have you and talking about a really important topic in the screen industries.
I'd love to hear a little bit more about why you took that path and why this work that you're doing is important to you, the kind of personal story behind it, if you can share that.
Sarah McCaffrey
I trained as an actor, that was what I wanted to do. And I worked as an actor in my really early years, predominantly in theatre, did one film never saw the light of day, but I had my beautiful sons when I was quite young. So I was just turned 24 and had another son at 26. And so from then on, I kind of took jobs that made sense whilst raising a family. So I worked kind of not in production, but in associated industries with lots of little jobs that fitted in around the demands and, you know, the pleasure of being able to look after my boys.
I had my own struggles and my own mental health and so I decided while I was going to train, I did some counselling, which was totally uncomfortable and not something I would have probably ever considered. But I did. And I thought, well, this actually was really helpful. And then I felt compelled to train to be a counsellor.
It was just an interest really. And it was more from a self development perspective than it was that had any great business idea there. And then COVID struck, there was the lockdown, I was furloughed from my job and I got asked by ScreenSkills to provide some support for all their trainees. And they said, you know, we’ve got 250 trainees, can you support them? And I said, absolutely, I can.
And then you have to find a way, right? I always say, yes, it's my default. Yes, we can. And then I'm going to find a way. And from that, we just, you know, I guess I was blessed. met some great developers along the way and we just created this really nice thing that I'm really proud of. I've got a wonderful team and the whole success of my business has been founded upon the wonderful people that have committed to sticking with me on this slightly hair-raising journey of a startup in film and TV in mental health. So, you know, I've been lucky along the way.
Carley Bowman
So the first thing we'd like to ask you is, in your own words, what is the importance of embedding welfare practices in the screen industries? And what do you want to achieve with that?
Sarah McCaffrey
I think it's so important in any industry. I think it's that reminder that we all have mental health, like we have physical health and you know, how mentally fit and well we feel is going to impact everything we do, whether that's within the workplace or outside the workplace. And I think, if we want to create amazing content and create work in this creative sector that can be fast paced and quite demanding, it's really important that we make sure it's also psychologically safe and people feel happy to come to work and bring the best of themselves.
I think by embedding those kind of practices right at the outset, where we say, we've thought about you as our cast, as our crew, as our creative employees, we've considered your welfare and we want to make sure that you're protected from unreasonable demands, from poor behaviour, from bullying and harassment. And we're also going to support you if you need it. You know, I just think it's trying to create a compassionate and a kinder sector where people can really thrive, not just survive, which is what I hear a lot.
Matthew Walsh
And the work of Solas Mind, obviously you mentioned it's been created and designed to meet the demands and needs of the screen and creative industries in particular. So how do you tailor those programmes to meet the kind of individual demands that come with the industry?
Sarah McCaffrey
So I guess we're unique in that we are quite kind of techie. We have almost, like, digital wellbeing platforms that are created for each specific production creative company. And it's a digital platform and an app. And on those, we then hand pick a support team. If it's a production, we pick the right support team for that production, whether it's trauma therapists, whether we're working with maybe a creative company that would prefer more coaches. And so rather than have hundreds of people there to support, which is just overwhelming for individuals, we hand pick and curate a wellbeing support service that's going to support that production or creative company.
Understanding the sector and the fast paced nature, for me, the most important thing was to remove barriers to access, to make it really easy to get support. And we always say we're kind of the personal approach to supporting well-being at work. So individuals can pick who they want to talk to. They can select by language, specialism. They can see a picture of the person and read about them. So it feels very much like it's not a corporate service. It's personal. It's a service for you. And I think that's really important.
Carley Bowman
And I guess there are very specific, or unique pressures in our sector and our industry. What do you see the key ones being, what are the ones that you find the most challenging to address?
Sarah McCaffrey
The one that's always the most challenging is the hours. The hours, especially in film and TV - and the gaming sector - the crunch culture. The hours can be ridiculous and they make it really hard for people to find any semblance of work-life balance. And I think that comes with so many challenges, where relationships falter, there's no time to deal with stuff outside of work and then that impacts in work. But I think if we think about the sector at the moment, there's no certainty and little control. Within that, it's very hard for people to find any semblance of psychological safety. Nobody knows if they're working, they don't know if they're going to work again, they don't know what the industry is going to look like in 12 months. There are some people working. We get the sense they feel guilty because so many of their contemporaries are out of work. That's a massive challenge – to have neither certainty nor control is uniquely challenging. And I think that's where we sit for a lot of the sectors sit at the moment. And I think that's very hard to manage that kind of state and wellbeing.
Carley Bowman
How much awareness and recognition do you think there is on production about the importance of mental health and making sure that people have pathways to be supported? Is that something that's improving? Is it in a good place right now?
Sarah McCaffrey
I think it's absolutely improving. I definitely think there's a shift and people are considering it much more. I mean, we work internationally. We work with all the bigger studios that do now embed support across all their shows. But what we're finding is even with the smaller ones, they might put just a small package of like 10 sessions of support in place. But there's a lot more people thinking about the preventative side, which for me is of paramount importance. You know, setting aside a quiet space on set where people can go and just take a breather. Really thinking about reviewing the demands being placed upon people - are these reasonable? Rather than just passing demands down the chain and not thinking about the impact of those decisions.
So I think there's a lot more awareness, definitely. It's better, but I still think it is still a very reactive sector. We still get weekly emergency SOS calls when people are already broken, which is just absolutely the wrong way to do it. Obviously we will help, but you know, if you embed supportive practices at the outset, we're going to help stop or negate the risk of people becoming broken further down the line. And that's really important, which is partly why at the beginning we did just offer kind of sessions of support, but now we have the wellbeing hub and we have an app and there's yoga and meditations and mindfulness tools.
So there's loads of little bite-sized self-care strategies and things people can dip in and out of to keep themselves well. So almost the last part would be that you have to book a counselling session. But actually, throughout the shoot, it's been embedded and we're going to do training and we're going to look after ourselves.
Carley Bowman
Given the landscape out there at the moment and some of the challenges in the industry that we're all very aware of, are you finding that people are coming to you for support earlier in the process or later in the process?
Sarah McCaffrey
I think people are coming to us earlier now. So I think there's definitely been a shift. Obviously when I first started five years ago, I think there was a lot of suspicion and it was new and it was like, my God, they're going to report back. They're going to be calling the production company and telling them whose booked. So there was much more suspicion, but I think as trust has grown - and what's nice for us is because we roll across so many productions and we're partners with so many companies so that we roll across all their slate - some cast and crew have seen the same counsellor on our team across four shows in the past five years. So there's a really nice continuity of service for those people that are like, oh, brilliant, I can book back in and speak to whoever it might be.
So I definitely think it's much earlier now than it used to be. People are really just accessing it as soon as they get the platform and the app. And they're booking in right at the beginning of shoots before they've even started in prep. Yeah, it's nice to see.
Matthew Walsh
I've noticed some of the training you do is designed and tailored for different seniority levels. So you do a nice piece of mental health training awareness for managers, for example. How do these kind of sessions come about? And does your experience within the industry kind of inform the designing of these ones?
Sarah McCaffrey
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're very much tailored towards the sector. So a lot of my training is for ScreenSkills, and I've run a lot of training across other production companies. But I do mental health awareness for heads of department, for managers. And I think that's really important to have the context of the industry and understand that often these managers are managing up, they're managing down, how can we best support them? And I talk a lot about the importance of managers, especially heads of departments, about looking after themselves in order that they can support other people. You have to have your own oxygen mask on first, right? You have to keep your resilience in check. If you're burnt out and overwhelmed, you're going to be an ineffective leader and you're in turn going to create a high-risk workplace that's going to filter down and impact everybody's resilience within the team. So that’s key for me, to being a compassionate leader is making sure you're okay. And then going from there. So yeah, I think it's helpful to understand the context of the sector definitely
Carley Bowman
What are the three key pieces of advice – or more or fewer – that you would offer people working in the industry who maybe aren't thinking about their mental health? Things are feeling good, they've got a job, they're working well. But to protect their mental health going forward, what are the key things that you would say to them? How should they be aware?
Sarah McCaffrey
I think it's always just that check-in. I think we're so attuned to physical health, right? We notice like every ache and pain, every slight headache, we're so tuned in, aren't we? And yet with our mental health, I think we sometimes just ignore it a bit. And I think sometimes, especially when we start to get busy and maybe start to become overwhelmed, we can almost engage autopilot and just kind of start to plough on ahead and not really pay any attention.
So I think just that reminder to check in, you how, do I feel today? How do I feel physically? How do I feel mentally? What do I need to do to keep both in check? Now, I always hesitate to say self care because it's a bit boring. But what are those things that work for me? Right? What lifts my spirits? What makes me smile? What lightens my mood? What are those things? And can I do more of them as opposed to maybe doom scrolling and all those things that don't really serve us? Identifying those tiny little things that actually make you say that makes me feel good. So can I commit to doing more of that? I think it's important.
Carley Bowman
Very easy to do if you just take the time.
Sarah McCaffrey
It’s commitment, isn't it? And I think sometimes we get into habits, right? So it's bad habits. I always talk about a lot of self talk. You know, what's that one bad habit you ditch? For me, I have a terrible compulsion to check emails at two in the morning, and I feel compelled to respond. Not helpful, right? That's not serving me. And actually, what's a good thing would be to go for a walk in the woods and not take my phone or not look at my phone. And sometimes we just get into those unhelpful habits. And I think it's making that commitment. Actually, this is important. I am going to leave my phone at home. I'm going to try that this afternoon and I am going to walk without looking down. It's important.
Matthew Walsh
And just following on from that, to wrap up, what resources would you signpost? Where would you advise people look if they're at an executive leadership role or want to learn more about helping their own productions and the workforce, or even if they're at any another level and want to just quickly check in and see what's available?
Sarah McCaffrey
On our website we've got loads of signposting documents, I think ScreenSkills has got some really good signposting documents on their website for where to go and they offer the mental health e-learning module. Underneath that, there's a whole host of signposting resources. And there's lots of, you know, if you Google companies that support film and TV counselling, psychotherapies, psychotherapists that support film and TV, there's a whole wealth of resources out there. There's a lot more out there now than probably there was five years ago.
Carley Bowman
And what does, what does it feel like when you can see the impact that you've had on an individual, or the experience on a production? I mean, that must be very satisfying and you're kind of achieving what you set out to do.
Sarah McCaffrey
Yeah, it is really, because I never had any great plan. I had some great supporters from, you know, whether it was line producers or wonderful people in the industry. I didn't have any great plan. And sometimes it is hard running a business, anyone running a business. We're a big business. You've got 70 contracts, I've got an in-house team across the world. And I think just sometimes, just when one person feeds back, we get feedback all the time and they'll just say, it was life-changing. I met the most wonderful therapist and it was life-changing. I mean, that always moves me. I just think, wow, actually, I'm so grateful that we could just have given you that opportunity to speak to somebody that made all that difference. And somebody fed back the other week and said, if only I could just meet them that once in person to say thank you.
And that's all I do it for, you know, things like that, I think makes such a difference. Like everything else is irrelevant actually. But if you can make just a tiny difference to people and just show them the benefits. I really do have the most fabulous team of people supporting that I'd be happy for my sons to talk to any of them because everybody is hand-picked. And I think that makes all the difference.
Matthew Walsh
There's no better feedback really, is there? That's exactly what you want to hear.
Sarah McCaffrey
No, no better feedback. When other people say, I would have left the job if we couldn't have access to support. And that from a business case, obviously, it's the investment in our teams, isn't it? And it's being more compassionate. How can we support people to thrive, rather than just disposing of them and freelancers feeling like they're dispensable commodities? How can we make them feel that they do have value? There are so many fabulous people in the sector, and it's such a shame that so many feel they can just be disposed of.
Carley Bowman
Well, thank you, Sarah. I think that's a really great conversation. There's lots more work to be done out there, as we all know, but thank you for the work that you're doing. And we ask people to have a look at Solas Mind and see what you offer and what the services are and reach out for support. And also to check out, thank you very much, the ScreenSkills e-learning module and some of the other courses that you and others offer through our platform too. So thanks for taking the time.
Sarah McCaffrey
Thank you so much. you know, thanks to ScreenSkills. It's a fabulous resource and fabulous training for everybody. So thank you so much for inviting me. It's been a real pleasure.
Outro
Carley Bowman
Thanks for listening to this episode of The ScreenSkills Podcast. And thanks to our guests who are clearly doing a lot of good work in the area of mental health and wellbeing. And there are lots of resources, including quite a few on the ScreenSkills website, Matthew.
Matthew Walsh
Yeah, that's right. Well, there's the free e-learning modules you can access, including ‘Introduction to mental health awareness’. You will also find ‘Your Life at Work’, a strand of free online short training courses, which provide tools and tips to keep you and your teams happy and healthy in the workplace environment.
Carley Bowman
And also, we should mention the mental health training guidance for employers, which is a set of resources developed in partnership with the Film and TV Charity.
Matthew Walsh
So do be sure to visit the ScreenSkills website to find all of our training opportunities available. Sign up to the ScreenSkills newsletter to be the first to know. And if you want to get in touch with us, then reach out at podcast@screenskills.com. Thanks for listening.
Carley Bowman
This has been a ScreenSkills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation hosted by Matthew Walsh and Carly Bowman. It was produced and edited by Gabby Sharrock and marketing by Natalie Tandoh. The design and imagery was created by Gabby Sharrock.
In episode eight of the ScreenSkills podcast, launched in partnership with The Adobe Foundation, we focus on the issue of mental health and hear from those using their experiences of working in production spaces to improve the wellbeing of the screen industries.
Laetitia Nneke and Annika Hagemann - both producers and previous candidates of ScreenSkills training programmes - tell us about the training and workshops they've delivered to members of the workforce. They discuss how their knowledge has informed their teachings, the need to anticipate areas of tension as early as possible and the importance of establishing communication lines across all levels.
Andy Glynne from the Film & TV Charity then joins us to discuss the charity's Whole Picture Toolkit. The free online resource was designed to support people at all levels of production, guide managers to look after the mental health of crew members and how to embed practices that have real lasting impact. It's an initiative that has already had hugely positive results across productions and we learn how the charity are adapting it to help even more of the workforce.
Sarah McCaffrey was an aspiring actress before she moved into production. In response to industry demand she then combined her experience of working in film and TV as a psychotherapist (MBACP) to create Solas Mind. She tells us more about her journey and how her company tailor bespoke services to companies, studios, crew and freelancers to support the wellbeing of those working in screen.
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Introduction to mental health awareness