Journey of an animation production manager, offered by the ScreenSkills Animation Skills Funded, is a webinar for all aspiring animation professionals, especially those from minority ethnic backgrounds.
In this webinar we hear from two rising figures in the animation world, Nathan Addai and Omari McCarthy, who sat down to discuss and demystify the nuances of animation production. They offer insights from Black perspectives, sharing advice for those who wish to grow into influential roles in the industry.
Watch the video or read the full transcript below.
Kieran Argo
Hello everyone and welcome to today’s ScreenSkills webinar called Journey of an Animation Production Manager. My name is Kieran Argo, and I work with the Animation Skills Fund at ScreenSkills.
In this session, we’re going to hear from Omari McCarthy and Nathan Addai, two rising figures in the animation world who offer insights into their career journeys from black perspectives.
We’ll discover the path to success and some of the obstacles along the way, from Omari’s experience as a production manager to Nathan's work as an animator and wellbeing training provider. Our speakers will share valuable insights on early career stages. Training experiences, creative teamwork, collaboration and leadership.
Whether you're just starting out or looking to advance in animation, this conversation promises practical guidance and inspiration from professionals who understand the industry's challenges and opportunities.
Thank you for joining us for this event which is funded by the ScreenSkills Animation Skills Fund with contributions from UK animation productions. So over to you, Nathan and Omari. Thanks.
Nathan Addai
Thank you very much, Kieran. Thanks for that introduction as well. And hello to all of you. Thank you for taking some time during the lunch period to hear us out.
So yeah, just to add on to that little introduction, my name is Nathan Addai, founder of Mental Roots. So, you might see a big ‘M’ logo behind me. That's the logo for my brand which was birthed through a BBC-commissioned award-winning animated short called Mental Roots, which raises awareness on mental health within the African and Caribbean diaspora. So, it's all about using creativity to encourage transparency and vulnerability. And yeah, just to raise awareness on important social issues. So that's my niche.
And I've spoken at events like the SAS conference Society for Animation Studies, you know, speaking about improving representation within the animation industry. And I'm currently an animation lecturer at Nottingham Trent University. So, if there's any NTU students here, nice to see you here as well. And yeah, over to you, Omari.
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, hey, everyone. My name is Omari. I'm a production manager from Birmingham, been in the industry for about 10 years now, working my way up on different shows. I'm also a writer on the side. And so, yeah.
You know, have always wanted to kind of do this or have been passionate about animation and storytelling in general. And so, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Hopefully sharing some bit of wisdom today, so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah, yeah. So, we've got a lot to get through. I think the big question, obviously the focus of this webinar is looking at animation production or more specifically being an animation producer. I think the big question is, how would you summarise what an animation producer does?
Omari McCarthy
Um, yeah. Yeah, so I think the producer's job is basically to get the show from script to screen on time, on budget, on vision. The job is different at different stages, right? At development it's really more about putting together the right team and planning, raising the money. Then you're in production. It's really problem solving, whether that's creative or logistics, raising money and managing the money and then in post, we give our policy control fine-tuning and delivering on time, so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah. So, it sounds like a lot, you know, a lot of different components to consider when it comes to the production of an animation. And I think sometimes we might take that for granted because a lot of the time obviously, the director probably gets a lot of the shine because they're leading the creative direction of the show or the production. But there's still a lot of behind the scenes stuff that needs to facilitate that. And yeah, like you mentioned, those different components. So, I think it would be good to get into your personal journey.
Omari McCarthy
Okay.
Nathan Addai
Kind of you talking about the start of your career within the animation industry. And even, you know, did you go to Uni, for example? If so, what did you study? And kind of the progression from there. So yeah, just kind of take us through that kind of early career period.
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, I did study at university, studied at Falmouth, all the way down south in Cornwall. And yeah, I think around the time of applying to uni, like, I think I thought I’d go more into VFX than animation. But we were watching, like, the first Transformers movie and then seeing Avatar and then thinking ‘okay, I want to go into doing that stuff’. And obviously studying on the course I've realised that it was really more animation and the more storytelling side of things that I wanted to be involved in.
And I think during the course, I kind of realised that production management was a good fit for me. And then… first job, really good job on the Mr Bean animated series, that was Tiger Aspect, pretty much as good a first shot as you can get. And yeah, shout out to Tim Searle who gave me my first job. I think you know Tim - Tim Searle.
Nathan Addai
Yeah, yeah. So, Tim Searle actually came to speak at Nottingham Trent Uni to our animation students a few weeks ago.
Omari McCarthy
Oh, okay. Yeah.
Nathan Addai
And he was talking about kind of pitching new IP and what goes into that and he mentioned, you know, the Mr Bean animated series. I think Dennis and Gnasher as well which is what you both worked on, which I'm sure we'll get into that in a bit.
Omari McCarthy
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a really good. Just right place, right time and Tim Searle… about getting my first job in the industry. Working as a production assistant and then, yeah, just kind of been gradually working my way up since then so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Nice. So how beneficial would you say your degree was in helping you kind of prepare for industry?
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, it was really good at giving me the sort of foundations of what animation is. And I think if you're an artist as well. There might be an artist on the call? I can see Max is nodding!
Nathan Addai
Yeah, shout out, Max!
Omari McCarthy
But yeah, no, I think if you're an artist, I think it's kind of critical just to kind of get those foundations and then what fundamentals and all the principles.
I think for production, you get people coming from different avenues. So, if you don't study animation, that's okay. Sometimes having a background in people or finance can be useful to you.
Nathan Addai
Hmm.
Omari McCarthy
Because a lot of the process you can learn by being involved in this. Or even if you don't study it you can still contribute so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah. Yeah, and even before this call, you know, we were talking about like how, again, you know, the production side of things is very much kind of that administrative, and kind of knowing that kind of side of things as well, but as you've just said, a lot of it can be learned on the job which, I imagine, was the experience for you. Were there any internships or work placements that helped you get your foot through the door? That's a common term we hear in our industry. You know, sometimes you have to take those extra opportunities.
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, I did. I did a work placement, yeah. I did a work placement at Second Home Studios with Chris Randall, one of my early work placements. I also did one at Spider Eye Animation in Cornwall. There's a woman called Erica Darby. I was studying in Falmouth and they have a studio in Penzance of all places.
Nathan Addai
Oh, okay.
Omari McCarthy
So I was down there. I think I did a one-week placement in Penzance, which was weird for me because I'm like a city guy and Penzance is like, it's like the very bottom of the country. Very, very different world. But yeah, that was really good and it just brought in that foundational understanding of what the sort of day-to-day of a studio is actually like.
So, yeah. Those two work placements put me in good stead. And obviously, when I do get that first job at Tiger Aspect, I have those two things on my CV. So, yeah.
Nathan Addai
And when were those placements in regards to your degree was it during…?
Omari McCarthy
Oh, yeah. So, it was yeah… um Spider Eye I did that during… it was between second year and third year. And then when I was at Second Home Studios, that was after I graduated. So, yeah. And I think having that on my CV while I was studying - that was really, really useful. So even just going back into university, third year. Having done that week placement, it just kind of gave me a new perspective on things so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah. And how long were the placements?
Omari McCarthy
It's hard to remember… Spider Eye, I think, was a week.
Nathan Addai
Okay.
Omari McCarthy
And then Second Home Studios, I think was one week that became that became, maybe, four weeks? And then I got the job offer in London and then moved to London.
Nathan Addai
Okay. So that's good because I guess that puts into perspective how, you know, even though it might be a brief amount of time that you spend it as a placement, there's still so much that it can do for you in the long run.
So, I think that really puts things into perspective for those who are watching that, you know, the placement doesn't have to be too epic in terms of like, you know, time or energy. Obviously, I can see in the chat there's already questions around travel and navigating that for placements but I’m sure probably get to that a bit later.
Okay, so you had your internship and work placements which helped you, and then do you kind of want to talk about how that led you into working on Mr Bean as a production assistant? On the animation series.
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, I mean, I mean, yeah, it just kind of gave me some kind of a better foundation in being on a show that was going – on projects that were live. And just getting some of the basic administration, entry-level production tasks under my belt. And just obviously on my CV that looked really, really good for me.
And that Mr Bean, you know, being a big and Tiger Aspect is a really well respected company. It was just a good, a really, really good start you know?
Nathan Addai
Yeah. Were there any highlights from being a production assistant? Any cool memories or fun moments?
Omari Addai
Yeah, loads I'm still friends with people to this day who were on that show. It was just a really cool group of people.
And there was one day where we shut up we did a 12-hour shoot, live action promo shoot. I got to meet Rowan Atkinson, a lovely guy. And I got to be a stand-in for him during the promo shoot… because we look alike! So yeah… um it was really good, um yeah lovely guy. I met him a couple of times. He came in to give us like little pep talks every so often… quite a guy. But yeah, no, really, really good show and just, yeah, met some great people while working on it as well.
Nathan Addai
Amazing. And how long were you working on Mr Bean in that role?
Omari McCarthy
I think it was probably just shy of about two years. It was quite a long time actually,
Nathan Addai
Oh, wow
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, and then not long after that, I went to a Studio AKA to work on Hey Duggee, series two.
Nathan Addai
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So more kind of children's IP there. So that's good.
Omari McCarthy
Absolutely.
Omari McCarthy
Nice. Okay, let's talk a little bit about networking and mentorship. So even as you were doing the production assistant role, how did being in that environment help you from a networking perspective? Because, again, you hear this phrase a lot in the creative industries, where it's more about who you know than what you know. And so, yeah, kind of people or moments have kind of helped you network-wise, even within that role?
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, I think obviously, it was a big show, but I think maybe 50, 60 people on it at its peak. And like that's a really big network of people that you that you leave with. So, some of the animators from Mr Bean helped me get my job on Hey Duggee at Studio AKA, right? So, that's just them recommending me which is great. And then also Tiger Aspect were part of Endemol at that time, during the Endemol Shine merger at that time. And so you will also get to meet all these other people across those other companies, people who are working on that, while they're running all these other shows as well. So just as first job go, I think working in a big company is lovely. Working in a small company is great too.
Um just yeah and I think yeah, your network’s important, but I think, you know, I'm seeing a couple of questions drop into the comments from people. And I know that obviously finding the money to actually be able to afford to do this is tough. But I think, you know, when thinking about this kind of thing, work placements and internships… I know a lot of them are unpaid… But put it like this – I think there are three types of currency, right? There's obviously actual money, which is what you want.
But there's also network and then there's also, it's not a good way to put it, knowledge. Money, network or knowledge, right? Or just like the skills you're going to get from the job. Ideally, a job gives you all three. But you want to get at least one of those things. And if it isn't one of those three things then you can turn it down, I think, right? Because you're not going to get any kind of value from it. So, you know, I don't want to endorse unpaid work placements or internships but sometimes it's a necessary evil so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's quite interesting to hear because obviously with the cost-of-living crisis as well, especially. And I guess rightly so is hearing a lot more people kind of fighting for their rights in terms of like being paid their worth within the industry but balanced with that, I think it's good that you're saying that there have to be some realistic expectations especially early on in your career in terms of seeing the opportunity and sometimes maybe doing something for free.
You know, I'm sure with certain companies and opportunities, you know, it might be maybe a few months or a slightly longer period of time where there might be unpaid sort of training opportunity. But it's just about thinking long sort of taking the long picture and seeing you know like one of those three different values you've mentioned. You know, if it's maybe a combination of two of them, maybe might make it more worth it, even though they might not be the pay in an immediate sense.
So, I think the next thing we could probably look at is, in terms of today's age, how would you do it in today's age? You know, if you were still if you were at that kind of early stage of your career now…
Omari McCarthy
If I was going to break into that?
Nathan Addai
Yeah, like how would you… do you think you would do anything differently in terms of how you would network or...
Omari McCarthy
Yes, there was something I would do. I mean, you know what's funny? The reason I was… I posted to LinkedIn a couple of weeks ago. I think it was like at the start of the year, some advice on graduates and how to break in, which quite a lot of people shared. And I think some of what I've said on there applies, so if you get the chance, you should read that. But also, one thing I did, I was really focused on working on shows that were major IPs so that's what I was targeting.
I must have read something about the future is going to be IP-driven. But I think if I'm doing it again, I wouldn't focus on that. One, everything's going to be IP anyway, just because that's all that's getting made now so it's no longer a competitive advantage. I think when I was coming up, genuinely if you had credits on Mr Bean and Hey Duggee, that would look really good for you or everyone's working on stuff that's based on something now. So, it doesn't really matter. What I would do today, I would try to pick my boss. Try to pick who your gonna work for. So that's not necessarily picking companies but you're picking… you want to work for the smartest producers and production staff that you can so that you learn as much as possible from them.
That'll be my advice so I think if you're a graduate, leverage your alumni network. So, talk to your lecturers, ask them for introductions to producers who are in the industry or people who are coming up, reach out to former students who studied at your university and see if you can work under them. And also ask them if you were me, who would you go to work for? And then try to get yourself working for those people. So, I think, yeah, like, I think you want to pick your boss.
Another thing is obviously networking. So, some events that you could attend. There's one coming up in April, actually. Get Animated, 1-2 April, it's worth looking up. So, one of the newer events on the animation calendar. And then in the summer, there'll be the Children's Media Conference. That's like the first week of July every year. I used to volunteer there quite a lot. I would recommend going to that just to kind of meet people. They're the more friendly in industry events and even if you don't have money. The volunteering is usually free but I think Children's Media Conference, they'll cover your accommodation and travel. And that's a really good way to kind of meet people. Yeah, really good.
Nathan Addai
Oh, wow. Okay, so there's a great opportunity for you guys to consider if you're still trying to make connections into the industry.
Okay, so yeah, let's maybe talk a little bit more about some challenges that you experienced after graduating. So, what were kind of the, I guess, the reality checks or, I guess, maybe surprising challenges that you faced in kind of the early stages of your career.
Omari McCarthy
I think it was probably just being humbled by going into the industry, right? In university, I was quite popular, you know what I mean? Everyone knew me and you were like the popular guy. People are like, oh, you're going to go on to, you know, you'll be producing a show in no time. My first job was a production assistant. I was making the tea, you know what I mean? So I was humbled very, very quickly. I think some of us were a bit deluded and thought we would go into big jobs and just yeah, um expectations were set very, very quickly. And yeah, you just realise how little you know when you come into the industry and you work on these big machines. So, there was a bit of that. That was a bit of a shock.
And then also just – I remember on my first job, it was my first job. You basically go from kind of being sort of top dog at university to kind of basically being at the bottom of the food chain again so that's one for learning. And yeah, just… just realising that this is the massive leap between you making your university shorts and then actually working on a series in the industry if you know what I mean. So that that's that was one of the biggest surprises yeah.
Nathan Addai
Okay. Yeah. Okay, cool. So, I think we can go on to the next kind of section, which is more around your growth and development, and I guess finding just kind of the nitty gritty of kind of the day-to-day of being a production manager or animation producer. So, in fact, first, would you like to make a distinction between being an animation producer and then a production manager. How would you describe kind of the difference between the two roles?
Omari McCarthy
Yeah. I think… producers are across the entire lifespan of a project where they will see it from development, financing, all the way through to production. They're probably going to be on it for, like, the main production for four or five years and if not, however many years to raise the money either side. So, it could very well be a 10-year journey for them.
Whereas if I'm coming on the short show as a production manager, I'm probably going to be on it for 18 to 24 months while the show is made and then I would go on to another show, if not other shows within the company or other companies, right?
And so the producer is kind of high level, the entire lifecycle of the project, whereas production manager you are looking kind of three to six to nine months at any given moment. Always pressing into the future about what's coming, troubleshooting and just trying to make sure that we stay on time on budget. And sometimes people need to be able to zoom into kind of details and also kind of zoom out and take a kind of 35,000 foot view as well. So yeah.
Nathan Addai
Okay. So, for you, was it being a production manager that came first before focusing on being a producer, or the other way around?
Omari McCarthy
No, I think it was when I was in university actually. Producing some of the student products at a student level, obviously a very different thing, but that was when I kind of realised this was the path that I wanted to pursue. I was doing a couple of projects, maybe two or three short films that were really good and then just kind of really enjoyed the kind of… being involved in that kind of creative stuff and then the logistical side as well. And then my lecturer spotted that in me as well. And I think just realising that was the path to pursue.
Nathan Addai
Okay. And so… how would you describe an average day of a production manager? And of course, you can pull from your own experience or any other kind of general experiences.
Omari McCarthy
The average day… So, mornings – um, morning huddle with the team. Just a morning meeting just to kind of discuss sort of what's been on the previous day and what kind of major things we need to get done the current day. Then I might be in dailies where we're reviewing work from different departments. Off the back of dailies I'm probably going to be troubleshooting. So, if there are shots or tasks that are blocked, I'm probably going to investigate as to why so that we can kind of get those pushed through. Being aware of what, um, what our next deliveries are. And then there's, well, we're waiting for notes on that chase off. Or sometimes the coordinates can chase it. And then I'm constantly doing one-on-ones with team members as often as possible. And then sometimes you're kind of deal with the client as well. So yeah, it varies basically.
Nathan Addai
Okay. Reem has just put in the chat, are there any creative elements involved in being a production manager?
Omari McCarthy
Creative elements... Yes, there can be. I mean, there were going to be times when... yeah, I suppose it’s creative problem solving, right. So, on some level you've kind of got three dials that can turn at any given moment. You've got scope, resources, time. And how you kind of juggle those three is where you get to be creative. So not necessarily, you aren't directing anything in that way but just you have to do it with how you use time, how you use people, how do you think about processes and workflows, so yeah.
Nathan Addai
So those three things, do you say – scope, resources and time.
Omari McCarthy
Yeah – scope, resources and time, yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah, so you're constantly juggling between those things. Make sure there's a good balance between those three.
Omari McCarthy
That's it.
Nathan Addai
Okay, so coming back to kind of the key projects and defining moments. Would you say there are any particular turning points that significantly helped your career trajectory? And again, you might relate that to certain people who have helped you along the way, but any, I guess, big turning points in terms of careers or learning curves? Feel free to share.
Omari McCarthy
Yes. Yes. Definitely a few, I think. Obviously, first, on Mr Bean. Just getting in on that show, I think. Then I was on Dennis and Gnasher, series one, at Jellyfish Pictures. That's my first CG show. I worked on a Disney show, for 101 Dalmatian Street. Everyone wants to work on Disney shows so that was just a nice milestone to kind of check off. Axis Studios for sure because it was high-end CG work. I hadn't done work of that calibre with that level of talent before. So that was just amazing to see. And then my first production manager job, which was at Kids Cave, Kids Cave Studios, on a Netflix show. So yeah, I'd say that was probably like the major, sort of milestones.
Other than that, just the mentors to help me. So basically all the producers I worked with in the past and then there's a guy called [inaudible] who has just kind of been supporting me over the years quietly so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Awesome. So yeah, loads of different shows there, as you said, loads of different styles.
Would you say that your production management or producer style has had to change quite a bit from project to project or is it more or less kind of the same?
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, because on some level you have to conform to the sort of culture of the studio that you're working at, right? Everyone has a different kind of approach. I have to say Axis, really, really impressed with Axis. I know they've gone out of business, but we could touch on the state of the industry a bit later. Um, yeah, just as I think I was really, really impressed with that level of production I saw there. I think… Yeah, like the kind of culture of the studio is kind of set top-down so what like whatever the EPs want – Eps, line producers, producers – however they kind of set the tone for the show that's what you're going to be working within.
I just kind of like to be flexible so I can kind of turn up and obviously, I've kind of got best practices from different places I've worked at. But ultimately, you've got to fit in with the culture of that studio so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah. And it just goes to show, you know, any form of leadership has to be, you know, tactile. You know, you have to be flexible with how you work with, you know, different studios and I’m sure that the style of animation as well has an impact on loads of production logistics in terms of timing and software and things like that.
Omari McCarthy
Yeah. Yeah, it does.
Nathan Addai
So, I can imagine, you know, depending on whether it's 2D or 3D or a mixture of the two that can also have a massive impact on how you know the logistics of production gets planned out.
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, what you tend to find is 2D – CG shows have a lot more process. 2D shows with a lot less process but have its own challenges. I quite like both, I think. I'd love to see more and more hybrid shows as well so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, let's see what we've got next. Okay, so from transitioning between roles. Let's see if I can make sense of this bit. So yeah, maybe break down, because obviously there's various other roles that are attached to being a producer or you know production manager.
Omari McCarthy
Yeah.
Nathan Addai
How would you say you progressed in your roles? And so obviously, production assistant, you started out… and then kind of what was kind of step-by-step, what was the um kind of progression?
Omari McCarthy
Um, so I think yeah, okay. So, I'll talk you through the different the different sort of uh production. Well, so I guess, yeah, PA – you're just over the day-to-day details. Coordinator – you want to look and be thinking a couple of weeks out, tracking and keeping an eye on the micro schedules. Then, production manager – they may be thinking three to six months ahead at any given moment. And they should be making the sort of micro schedules from the master schedule and kind of block them, unblocking anything that's blocked, basically. Line producers are concerned with the budget and the schedule across the entire lifespan of the projects.
Producers, again, will be not just about the project but before development and also kind of seeing it through the post, distribution, marketing. And then EPs I think even broader than that are thinking about franchises, licensing, merchandising, their relationships with broadcasters and investors, and just long-term strategy basically so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah. So that's good. So that puts into perspective that within production and production management there are loads of kind of smaller roles as well. That's what it sounds like.
And typically, so would you have like a production team then that does all of these different roles?
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, teams. Like I may work with a team as big as 10 and then also I’ve worked with teams where it was just me and a producer and then sometimes it's just you. So, it really depends on the size of the job. So yeah, it varies drastically.
Nathan Addai
Yeah. Okay. Awesome.
Before we get onto challenges and lessons learned in your industry, one more question I wanted to ask was around new technologies. So, how is new software… obviously we're hearing about AI and loads of different kind of bits of software technology that in many ways is automating kind of project management and idea creation, you know, for projects. How have you seen technology impact animation production? And how do you see it impacted moving forward?
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, I mean, I'll touch on AI in a minute, but I think animation has always kind of been at the forefront of technology. And I think some of the best studios I've worked with have tried to stay at the forefront of that technology as well.
And I think that AI is an interesting challenge. I think that using AI for operations makes sense. Um, like, just kind of across sort of day-to-day operations of the company. I think you and your collaborators need to make decisions about how you use it on a particular show. If you're going to be using it, like, creatively, that's going to have its own ethical considerations. But keeping an eye on what's out there and it's really, really impressive. I'm sure you've all seen the images, videos that are coming out of nowhere. It's really, really impressive stuff.
I think we probably should be learning it because I'm hearing that AI is going to drive the content production down by about 90%. And I'm sure you've already heard the quote of that jobs might be taken by other people using AI rather than AI itself. So, I think we should be learning it basically. Especially for production management because, um, you know, on some level we do a job that people don't want to do or people don't have time to do.
I think a lot of people are more interested in pursuing the sort of artist roles. And if there's any jobs that are open to automation or being automated away it probably is production assistants, production coordinators. I think they probably should be considering using AI in some way so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Okay, thanks for sharing that.
Omari McCarthy
I mean, not everyone's going to agree with that but that's obviously it…
Nathan Addai
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, one thing we can all agree on is that the technology isn't going away, you know, and so it's just about how you use it or how you approach it. Because, yeah, technology shifts happen and it's all about kind of adjusting. Okay, so now we're going to look at more sort of challenges and I guess issues that we've seen in the animation industry. And of course, we're going to talk about representation, racism, which I think is important. But also, you know, any other sort of issues in relation to class and things like that and barriers that maybe you yourself have had to kind of navigate. And maybe any advice that you can share from that.
So, I'll let you start, Omari, in terms of yeah, generally what sort of challenges within the broader industry.
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, challenges. I mean, for me personally obviously when trying to break in… I'm actually from Birmingham. And I think when you're from the nations and regions trying to get into the industry is always harder because the industry is concentrated, at least it was more concentrated in London when I graduated – London, Manchester, Bristol. And then being from a working class background, having to pass through to get to those places to get the job in the first place. My mum and dad had to pay for my first month's rent and deposit when moving to London. I wouldn't have been able to afford it otherwise. Well, like all three of us did with my savings plus their money. And so, yeah, it's tough.
And then, yeah. You know, the industry isn't as diversity it could be, and I think I'm seeing that start even at university level. The course is obviously a bit biased. I did study in Falmouth all the way down south in Cornwall, but the courses aren't diverse therefore the students coming in aren't that diverse. And so, I'm not seeing… I suppose the question it could come down to like not seeing a lot of other, at least when I was coming up, there weren't a lot of other black production staff. They were really hard to find. I think I'm seeing more come up now. Haven't had the chance to meet all of them, but I'm seeing more just kind of pop up on my LinkedIn feed but most of them are entry level. I haven't seen a lot of them at producer level, right.
And then yeah, there is racism in the industry too. It's a bit like, I guess, the way it happens is it's actually quite insidious where, I'm not, it's like I’m not talking about like straight up name calling, but it's like people like to call it subtle but it's not. It's actually quite insidious. I mean, I was working in the studio a couple of years ago and there was a particular producer who seem to have it in for me and it was like, from the minute they walked in, I could tell I was going to have a problem with this particular person. And obviously, if I try to explain it to someone who doesn't look like us, they’re not gonna get it. You would get it. It's something unsaid. It's hard. It's difficult to articulate but like you know you're not welcome here.
That was one particular person, other people were fine to have me as part of the team. There was one particular day when, you know, it was basically holding me back from what was a pretty good opportunity. The producer next to me, bless her she could see that, she could see what was happening and she snaps and she said something I’ll never forget. Basically, she literally said, this is why there are no black animation producers. She almost stopped herself at the end of saying it and I kind of couldn't believe that she said that. I kind of couldn't believe it. Because on some level… one, it meant that she could see what was going on clearly even though we had never really spoken about it. But it confirmed a lot of my suspicions about what was going on there and like the wider industry...
Nathan Addai
What were your suspicions? Do you want to specify that?
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, yeah. I'll come back to that. But it's just about why there were no black animation producers. I think I’ve got more questions than answers to be honest. And then like I’m like, the fact that she felt... she stopped herself from saying it so it meant that she felt uncomfortable to even call it out when she saw it, you know what I mean? But she could see that... That was a, that was, yeah I don't know, it's just never left me actually.
But yeah, and I think one question I would love to ask some of the producers of I've worked under in the past, like I think about this a lot, actually… Like where… it's something that we were talking about as well, but like where are the black animation producers? Like where are they? And one thing I would love to ask the people that I worked for in the past would be like, when they were coming up and they were my age, who were the people at their level? But obviously right now I’ve got production friends who work at different levels from coordinators, PAs, line producers, like, we all kind of came up together.
And I’m thinking, for the producers I’ve worked with in the past, they must have come up with people who looked like me as well, right? But where are those people now? And why aren't they in the industry anymore? Like, assuming they ever were.
It's a question I would love to ask. Obviously, bringing up the issue of race, it's always kind of awkward, I mean... so but it's something that I've thought about a lot.
And so yeah, I don't have answers. I've actually got quite more questions than answers, to be honest. But maybe I will ask just to see if there are people out there. And don't get me wrong, there are people that I'm bumping into all the time that I just haven't heard of, that haven't cross paths with but that's kind of my thought on it.
Nathan Addai
Yeah, and I appreciate the transparency as well, because like you said, again, even just addressing racism and race you know racial disparities that we're seeing within our industry, you know, I think It's about time we just destigmatise that.
And like I said at the beginning, I've tried to you know, I mean I haven't worked in-house for a studio yet, but so far I've taken more of a freelance route and I remember when I was at the, um the SAS, conference, which is basically a conference for academics and people within industry within animation. They present talks and bounce ideas on how can we move the industry forward. And it took place at Teesside University in 2022. So again, a member of staff at my university, University of Derby, he invited me to present something there, which in of itself is I think one learning point we can look at is that, you know, it's important that creators from diverse backgrounds are informed about different events and opportunities that can push them forward and get them in the right rooms.
I think when we have more kind of allies and you know just people from different backgrounds who are like, hey, I heard about this thing, go and check it out. Just sharing information, I think is important. Especially for people, young, kind of creatives, up and coming creatives like myself. So I got to speak there, which was amazing. And, you know, I used the Mental Roots brand that I’ve created, were basically I'm trying to better engage and raise aspirations amongst young people from diverse backgrounds to consider animation and consider all the different styles and stuff there is. And I think one thing I mentioned in that talk was that if you're able to understand that everyday struggles of the young people you're trying to address, say for example if it’s mental health issues or confidence issues, those sort of things, and then you get them to see how you can use animation as a tool to address these very relevant and real things that they're going through on a day-to-day basis, that can help empower and encourage more diverse talent to enter the industry.
So it's just broadening the horizons of like, instead of animation just being seen as this mainstream sort of entertainment medium, you can also use it as a tool to raise awareness on certain issues and to educate and all these different kind of facets that I've started to use the Mental Roots content for. So, I think, in my opinion, that's one way we can look at it, is raising awareness and going into community spaces, going into diverse spaces, you know, to reach a wider array of young people, I guess to better prepare them for the industry and to see different ways that they can use their creative skills. And I think obviously with freelancing becoming more of an option now that can also encourage more diverse talent and content to be made in our industry.
So yeah, what do you think on that?
Omari McCarthy
I think that's great, man. I think what you're doing with Mental Roots, it's important work, you know what I mean? It's really important work. I think I definitely want to connect with you after this because I think I can contribute to that as well. I'd like to see where I can help.
But also, it's not just about entry level talent. I think we often focus on entry level. I think it's important to support mid-level talent as well because there's some people that just with the right push it gets where they need to get, but they're not always getting support.
And I think a lot of conversations always about entry level and I know everyone on this call is probably hearing that now and thinking well, yeah and I get that you guys need the support but there are people who probably with less support would get to the right senior roles and then they can bring you to the series, so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah, that's valuable. Yeah. So definitely, those who are trying to progress from entry level to mid or senior level, that's a big conversation. And also, I've already seen in the chat a few people have asked around what if you're changing industry as well That's also another big... sort of challenge that we could look at. I don’t know if you want to talk a little bit about that now or maybe in the Q&A section?
Omari McCarthy
Let's come back to it in the Q&A. I'll have a think about it.
Nathan Addai
Okay, cool. Okay, so we've got quite a bit more to get through.
We'll just briefly touch on, obviously, your present work. So, you've mentioned kind of the more commercial big, bigger projects that you've done. But now, obviously, more recently you kind of worked in smaller production companies. And so do you want to talk a little bit more about kind of your recent work and what you're doing now? Just very briefly.
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, yeah, I'll just touch on that briefly. But yeah, so obviously I've worked mostly on series. But right now I work on short form project so that's commercials, explainers, visualisations, and I'm kind of on those projects from the initial pitch all the way through to delivery. So I am liaising with the client, I'm doing the budget and the schedule and then delivering the final thing. And that's across 2D, CG, mixed media and some stop motion stuff. But I've got to start a series budget this afternoon as well for a puppet show. So yeah it's mixed but it's good it keeps me… every day is different, you know, so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah, yeah. And there's pros and cons to working in a big studio, in a smaller studio. I'm sure with working with smaller studios and short form projects. Do you feel that maybe there's a bit more freedom you have in terms of how you get to influence the process, the production process, in a way?
Omari McCarthy
I think if it's a small studio, you get to do more. Obviously, at the big companies, you're a small cog and a big machine, so you're departmental, you're doing a very specific thing. At a smaller studio you get to do the wider range of tasks so really depends on what you're suited to. But I think getting experience in both is important, but in order to get off, you really want to be across a whole show. Just so that you get to see how every department kind of fits together.
Nathan Addai
Okay. And then I think the last bit, let's go to… actually, yeah, we can look at leadership style and your philosophy. So, I think that's important. Are there some core principles that you follow to help you be a good producer and leader? Because we're looking at leadership within a project. So what kind of principles guide the way you work?
Omari McCarthy
That's going to be a good question. I think, yeah, there's a couple of things, I mean, I am… I think I posted about this the other day but just I think... when you're a leader, you need to be able to see your decision through the eyes of everyone in your department or everyone on the show. So sometimes you have to still have to make difficult decisions, but the quality of your decisions will improve, I think, if you are able to see how those decisions look for everyone and also it will change how you deliver that. Whether it's good or bad. And so, you manage everyone uniquely. No management style. It really depends on the person.
And then when I'm managing coordinators and PAs, a couple of things I.. almost sort of mantras that I need them to understand. I might do a post about this, but one of them is this idea of symptoms versus bugs – where that really just comes down to being able to get to the centre of a problem. There are some problems that will go away naturally but there are some problems that you need to solve because they could there will become bigger problems. And really you always want to make sure that those were written down, just to get to the root of a problem and that you're solving the problem at the centre if that makes sense.
And then, yeah, the three most important things, recruitment, cash flow, delivery. If you work in production. Obviously, that's not my level but if you're a PA, it's going to be whatever you're producers say it is.
Nathan Addai
Yeah. Yeah. So, I guess in summary… so three most important things, recruitment, cash flow and delivery. And so again, kind of balancing those components, which is good.
Omari McCarthy
Yeah.
Nathan Addai
I think when it comes to improving representation in our industry, when it comes to kind of trying to move our industry forward in a good way, it's all about giving back, isn't it? How do we expect things to improve if we're not giving back in some way to those who are coming up? And so do you want to share very briefly about ways that you've tried to give back in terms of sharing your knowledge and your experience as a producer?
Omari McCarthy
Do you know what? I think I could do more. So, one of the reasons that I want to connect with you is I think I could do more. I've done like the occasional panel, did the ScreenSkills one on the production manager, on how it was being a production manager during the pandemic. Was on a Dream Bigger. I know there's an organisation called Dream Bigger to do work placements. That was really cool to talk on and I'm always giving the odd career advice to my peers. Like a lot of us production staff, a lot of us know each other and we'll reach out to advise on how to do things. And some of us have funky skill sets where we know we're really good at one thing and maybe not so good on the other. So, I was helping a friend the other day. Because I also have a background as a screenwriter, I was helping her budget a writer's room and how much the scripts are going to cost.
Nathan Addai
Yeah.
Omari McCarthy
Because she'd been an animator for 10 years, but she'd never been across scripts in that way, right? So, we're always kind of helping each other out whatever we can. I mean, it's just in general there's all the people I worked for in the past, I would occasionally email them like, hey like how do I do this thing or how does this work? You know what I mean? So, yeah. And I tried to do that for other people whenever I can. So yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah, that's good. I've heard this term of networking horizontally. You know we're taught to connect vertically, which is like, oh, we're just trying to get to the next level. If I can connect with this person who's at a higher level then that will help my career. But actually, we're living in a climate now where the network of people that you have beside you, those who you went to Uni with, those who are on your level, like building with them and progressing with them is, I think, underrated. And so I think that's also a big thing that we can look at is like you said, you know, from time to time emailing your colleagues, people you've come up with. And I'm sure you've seen kind of the benefits of that, keeping that network of people horizontally. And, you know, because then you can help each other progress.
Omari McCarthy
Definitely.
Nathan Addai
Yeah. Okay, I know we're running low on time. Very briefly, would you want to give some quick gems to aspiring production managers and producers? If you could sum up some very quick tips to kind of help them in that trajectory….
Omari McCarthy
Quick tip. Yeah, I'll have to do another post on this because we’re quite short on time but, um, okay, quick tips for aspiring production managers. So graduates, keep in mind that graduates have a sell-by date for about 12 months. You really want to get into the industry as fast as possible. Every year you're out of Uni and not getting a job in the industry, it gets harder and harder to get in. You're competing with the new graduates so try to get in.
Like I said before – three types of currency money, network, knowledge. I know I shouldn't say take unpaid work, but if it happens, take it and get in, get what you can basically and then do it for as long as you can afford to, right?
I think that the symptoms versus bugs thing is a good mantra just to have in mind as you work. And then I think… yeah, you really want to be leveraging your university alumni network plus your lecturers.
And other than that, yes, get friendly with spreadsheets as well. And so, when someone asks about using production software, obviously people are using stuff like shock grid F-Trap and all and all the others but just friendly with spreadsheets. Look up, learn to use Excel and Google Sheets, and specifically learn how to use lookup tables, pivot tables. You don't know what those are, look those up – pivot tables, lookup tables. And just knowing how to manage a database is going to be very, very valuable for you. So yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah, and I'm sure, I think, there'll be… obviously this is being recorded. So, I know there's been loads of resources and things that have been mentioned and some of you are probably like, wait, I'm trying to make notes. Like, what was the name of that thing again?
So maybe Kieran can clarify this at the end. But obviously, this is being recorded. Maybe he can confirm if a recording would go out so that maybe you guys can watch a bit later and catch those details. But of course, feel free to help each other in the chat if any of you have got some details and want to share links. That's what it's all about.
We have, I don't know if there's anything else you wanted to say, Omari, before we get to the questions.
Omari McCarthy
And that's all for me now.
Nathan Addai
Okay. Did you want to plug any… platforms or where we can find out more about your work or the work of your studio or anything you want to shout?
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, yeah, you can check out the company I work for right now, Second Home Studios. We're a Birmingham-based animation studio specialising in stop motion and also CG, 2D. We do a bit of everything. And other than that, just feel free to connect with me online. I'm happy to answer any more questions if I can't get to them in the Q&A we do now. So yeah.
Nathan Addai
Okay, yeah. Someone has shared this, the Eric app, which I know about.
So, Eric, I mean, it doesn't specifically focus on animation, but just general sort of creative events. Like maybe there's a film festival, maybe they're looking for some volunteers or something. The ERIC app is a nice app. I think it's very much tailored to students and graduates. So, someone's just mentioned that in the chat. So, I'd say, yeah, you can try that as well.
And I'm seeing more and more kind of Instagram pages now that generally advertise like, you know, creative jobs and opportunities as well, so yeah, that's the great thing about today is that we've got all these, sort of, digital tools and social media platforms that are coming up to help bridge the gaps in employment within the creative industries generally.
Okay, let's look at some questions. So, I'm going to open… there's a specific Q&A section in here. Okay, so someone's just mentioned this, Festivus, which is another event. It's also a good way of networking. And it's on tonight in London at The Betjeman Arms in St Pancras. So yeah, I've heard of Festivus as well. If any of you wanted to check that out.
Okay, the other question I've got in the Q&A section is, would you say it's good to get experience and training before leaving Uni? I think we've more or less kind of answered that, but I don't know if you want to answer that more directly.
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, try and get some if you can but it's like I said, look up organisations, like Dream Bigger, Creative Access to kind of get your first kind of foot in the door. But yeah, if you can get it, it will look very, very good to potential employers so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah. And then coming back to the transitioning industries, so you said we will look at that at the end. So yeah, do you want to speak into that? Are there any examples of any of your colleagues who've transitioned from...
Omari McCarthy
Yeah. Yeah, I think I've definitely, I think having a background in legal or finance is very, very useful if you're pursuing production because what gets you in doesn't get you on. What gets you in is admin and basic production tasks, for what's actually going to get you on, because having knowledge around contracts, like contracts legal stuff then knowing how to manage money, employment law, operations, so that's what gets you up to the higher levels. But most things aren't necessarily animation specific that's more to do with how your company runs. So, I would be curious to know what industry they come from. But like there are some industries that lend themselves, very, very useful to being here and that being legal, finance, or even having to move from licensing and merchandising as well. So, it can still happen for you even if you're coming from different avenues, so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah, awesome. Someone's put, so they said obviously the main difference between producers and production managers is the time spent on a project. That's one of the core differences. Would you consider that the aspects of the role are the same? Other than timeframe, what are the other things basically that are different?
Omari McCarthy
Okay, so I think… Yeah, producers are probably more concerned with finance, but producers are probably going to be doing cost reporting, they're going to be more client facing and dealing with notes from broadcasters and streamers and just kind of filtering that before it gets down to the crew and the producer needs to be across troubleshooting across, whether that's creative or logistical, or personal. If people have issues.
Production manager is really more concerned with making sure that departments are hitting quotas and that you know a certain amount of shots or assets have been made per day, per week, per month. Deliveries, just kind of being across their core team. So, on some level it's not just through the timeline, its possibly to do with the scale of team that you’re across, whether it's department or if it's an entire show. Just, yeah, so that everyone… just the level of responsibility in general more so. So, so yeah.
Nathan Addai
We probably only have time for one more question. There's loads of other questions here which I very much appreciate from all of you. I'm sorry we haven't been able to get to all of them. But I've seen a few little questions around you know lack of representation and of course we could do a whole webinar and the whole event just focusing on improving ethnic representation in our industry.
But I guess a good question to ask you, Omari, is, and I appreciate that there's still a lot of questions you're asking about how do we kind of tackle this moving forward, but judging from your experience and maybe experiences of some of your peers as well, what advice would you give to any, not just Black people, but those from quote unquote minority ethnic backgrounds trying to progress in the screen, arts, whether it's live action or animation? Generally, would you say there are some things you would say as advice to them coming up and what can help them?
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, so first of all, I still think you should be pursuing this industry. The fact that you're not seeing other people who like you...It's a tough time right now, but there's still work in this industry. It's important work, especially if you're making stuff for kids for kids TV...
Nathan Addai
Yeah, sorry. Sorry, Omari. Your sound… sorry to interrupt you. Your sound seems to be broken up a little bit. Maybe just try speaking again. Yeah, your sound's broken up. Yeah, see if you… maybe try a different audio input or something.
Omari McCarthy
This is terrible timing, but I think my audio might have gone.
Nathan Addai
Okay. Okay, it's much better now. Sorry. Repeat what you just said again. Regarding the advice?
Hello, can you hear me?
Omari McCarthy
Can you her me?
Nathan Addai
I can hear you. Can you hear me? Okay, thanks.
Omari McCarthy
Sorry about that. I know we've got like no time left.
Nathan Addai
No problem. Sorry, can you just repeat those points again around kind of the advice you'd give? And then we'll wrap up.
Omari McCarthy
Oh, yeah. So obviously connect with us so that we can put you in touch with the right people. There are more of us in the industry than you're probably seeing. I'm happy to introduce you to people.
And then also just, like, we need your stories in this industry, right? We need writers, directors, producers to kind of bring a few more stories and we need producers to champion it. So maybe no secret that any… a lot of the entertainment industry is producer driven them. So, it's really important that we've got producers that are doing this too, that are bringing through those stories. So, I'm happy to be that person for you if needs be.
So yeah, connect with us. And then I think we need to get the black animators network up again. It was going for a while, but we need to kind of, um, kind of bring it back so yeah.
Nathan Addai
Yeah. Are you open to anyone emailing you or connecting with you regarding that?
Omari McCarthy
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remind me that you saw this panel and then we can chat, yeah.
Nathan Addai
Awesome. So that wraps things up. Thank you all for your time, guys. And if you wanted to check out more about Mental Roots as well, you can just go to mentalroots.org to find out more about the work that I'm doing and how I'm contextualising animation within addressing social issues affecting ethnic minority young people. But yeah, I'll hand over to Kieran. Thank you very much.
Kieran Argo
Well, thank you, Nathan and Omari. That's fascinating talk. We could have carried this on for at least another hour, easy. And going on the number of questions, fantastic questions coming in, you've obviously touched on some really important issues here which, you know, it would be fantastic to see, you know, continued. I think keeping conversations and these discussions going is critical.
I just want to drop in a quick plug for the ScreenSkills e-learning modules which are open and free to anybody. There's like, for example, for addressing unconscious bias in the workplace, for tackling harassment and bullying at work, an introduction to mental health awareness at work. There's a fantastic series of three modules on those topics called the Work Well series. And you can find them on the ScreenSkills website under training and then into e-learning. So that's how to find them there.
But listen, Nathan, Omari, thank you ever so much. It's been a fantastic talk and it will be available to listen again. Keep an eye out for it via ScreenSkills and can I just thank you both again and wish you all the very best and speak to you very soon. Thank you.
Omari McCarthy
Thanks for having me, see you soon.
Nathan Addai
Thanks for having me, bye to everyone.
About our speakers
Omari McCarthy is an animation producer from Birmingham, with a career rooted in children's media. He served as production manager on Kitti Katz (KidsCave Studios / Netflix), and brings his expertise in managing both short-form and long-form animated series to Birmingham-based Second Home Studios.
His credits include Mr Bean: The Animated Series (Tiger Aspect / Boomerang), Hey Duggee (Studio AKA / CBeebies), Dennis & Gnasher: Unleashed (Jellyfish Pictures / Emanata Studios / CBBC) and as a screenwriter he has written for series such as Justin’s House, Jojo & Gran Gran, Tim Rex in Space and Jamie Johnson FC.
Nathan Addai is an award-winning animator, entrepreneur, and recent Animation Studies Lecturer, mixings his animation specialism with his experience in youth work, mental health support and poetry/rap, to address social issues. He is the founder of Mental Roots, a growing multimedia movement incorporating animation, workshops and podcasting to highlight various 'minority-ethnic' experiences in mental health. The first Mental Roots animation was commissioned by Rural Media and released by the BBC.