The ninth episode of the new ScreenSkills podcast is now live! Listen below or subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Intro
Matthew Walsh
Welcome to The ScreenSkills Podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation. I'm Matthew Walsh.
Carley Bowman
And I'm Carley Bowman.
Matthew Walsh
And we're your hosts from ScreenSkills, the UK-wide skills body for the screen industries. But the real focus is on those working in film, TV and animation across the UK as we unpick the stories that matter to them.
Carley Bowman
Each episode we explore different themes within the industry and speak to some of its members to discuss how it impacts both their and the wider sector's work. We go beyond the camera to get the behind-the-scenes breakdown on all things production and we hear from those making the content you love.
Matthew Walsh
Hello and welcome to the ScreenSkills Podcast. I am your host Matthew Walsh and in this episode we're exploring all things children's TV and animation. As industry members gathered at this year's Children's Media Conference, we thought what better time to speak to some of those working across both animated and live action children's TV to learn more about the matters at the heart of the sector.
It's a fairly wide-ranging episode touching on the opportunities and challenges but also hearing about the role of freelancing and the new advances and technologies that are helping to shape both animation and live action children's TV.
Later on, you'll hear from Eline van der Velden on her work as part of the Children's Skills Council and the production company she founded, Particle Six. There's also ScreenSkills member Matt Brothers on the work of the Animation Skills Fund and how it supports both productions and individuals. And if you're one of those looking for a way into the industry, then stay tuned to hear about a programme designed just to do that.
But first, I'm going to hand over to ScreenSkills colleague, Kieran Argo, who took the microphone and spoke to producer, consultant and prominent animation industry figure, Helen Brunsdon.
In conversation with Helen Brunsdon and Kieran Argo
Helen Brunsdon
I’m Helen Brunsdon. I wear so many hats in the industry, but my current hat is as a production consultant for the BFI on the short animated films. And I'm also a producer and an EP and I'm based in Wales. So I'm quite local to the beach here in South Wales and I still love animation. That's me.
Kieran Argo
Hello and welcome to this very special ScreenSkills podcast. My name is Kieran Argo. I'm the animation production liaison executive at ScreenSkills. So I look after the Animation Fund and lots of the activities and I liaise with the skills council and many of the other industry people and representatives and companies that contribute into the fund. Today I'm delighted to say we've got a very special guest, Helen Brunsdon.
Helen Brunsdon
Thank you, Kieran.
Kieran Argo
I've just got to acknowledge the fact that you have been quite a leading light in the animation world in the UK. I mean, you've been a successful producer, consultant, and an executive amongst other things. I mean, you've worked with Aardman, you've worked with Disney, your work has been BAFTA-winning and Oscar-nominated, and you also served a short stint as director of Animation UK.
And then, you went on to be director of the British Animation Awards. So, you know, that's an amazing track history there of quite senior roles and positions that you've had. And can I kick off with a question that I was contemplating before we came on? And would you agree that with declining traditional broadcasting and advertising revenue, in the industry. The traditional forms of broadcast have been disrupted with all the streaming platforms and traditional models are basically out the window. There's a lot of audience fragmentation and changing patterns of consumption. I think that's what the industry has widely been challenged with over the last many years really. Is that a fair summary of the main challenges in your eye?
Helen Brunsdon
Yeah, and I think as a consequence, there isn't much money around. And in order to get into the industry, as well as finding money to make, sort of, content, I think people have to become a little bit more savvy, you know, in looking for opportunities. And I think, you know, you've highlighted, I've been in the industry quite a long time. I think we've all seen you know, high peaks, we've all seen low lows, you know, sort of throughout that time that I've been in the industry. So this isn't something new. I think what is new is what you've just described there is that it is a fragmentation of where people are viewing things. So therefore, that does have a knock-on effect. And I think access to finance is the big challenge, you know, and that's for everyone. You know, that's global, you know.
Kieran Argo
So, that's the challenges for especially with productions. In terms of for new entrants trying to get into the industry - what's the kind of implications, the knock on from that environment, for new entrants? Do you think it's easier or harder?
Helen Brunsdon
Well, I think, I don't know whether it's harder. I think, I think again, people have to be coming out of unis and courses in general, just have to be, I'm, you always hear me, wherever I do talks like this, I'm always saying it's about research. You know, they have to research the industry to know who is, you know, in production or they have to read all the, you know, the newsletters and the e-letters and everything that we do. So they have to have to gen up on, you know, who's doing what when. I think it's hard sometimes to that when people are leaving uni, and this is a really general sweeping statement, it's not necessary, you know, it's not for everybody. I don't mean everybody, but I think it's really hard to know how studios operate, you know, because our animation industry has very small studios to very large studios and I think what doesn't, whether it's got taught or they don't see enough information coming through is how they think those studios operate and how they work or how they even think a workflow through a studio is. And I think that that has remained the same and I think the people that know that information and do their homework and do research will get noticed or they will be ahead of some of their competitors, and peers, to find those positions. I think maybe some of the earlier roles have disappeared sometimes, but I think there is still a lot of opportunities there.
Kieran Argo
Yeah, because it's safe to say that I don't have the figures to hand, but the majority of animation companies are comparatively quite small enterprises. There's only a handful of companies that sort of break the 200 employee barriers. You know, I could probably count them on one hand. But, it's.. you're right there. Finding the right mix, we'll maybe touch on this later, but finding the right match, sorry, between personality and the people that you'll be working with in a company. Finding that harmony can be one of the challenges along the way. So, just whilst we're on that, challenges and opportunities working as a freelancer. Are there any key pointers that you could give for that?
Helen Brunsdon
Yeah, it's a good question considering, you know, the majority of our, I mean not just our animation industry, the creative industries as a whole, you know, there is a lot of freelancers and there's a lot of people working in the screen industries full stop as freelancers.
Kieran Argo
I think the Animation UK report from a few years ago now, I think it indicated there was over 50% of people in the animation industry, are, constitute freelancers. So that's a significant number of freelancers.
Helen Brunsdon
It is and I think one of the first challenges is how you survive, how you keep surviving being a freelancer. There are definitely periods of lack of work through to being busy and sometimes work overlaps or the job's come in two and you've got to maybe turn down one. So the first thing I would say is don't ever give up. You've got to keep going. You've got to promote yourself.
I think you've got to be, as we've already said, reading about companies and what they're up to. On the monetary side, I think people don't always know that they have to pay their taxes. And how do you do that? How do you register yourself as a freelancer? How do you set yourself up financially as a freelancer? And I think that needs to be, you know, sort of like brought into people's knowledge. And then knowing... how much your daily, hourly, weekly, monthly, annual rates are. How much should you be getting in a particular role with the level of experience you have? Maybe it's a new entry, maybe you're changing jobs, maybe you've got one or two, three years experience. So you just got to keep up with the rates of what people are paying and be able to sort of put your hand up and sort of say actually I'm worth a bit more than that, you know, I've known this production is paying this much, you know.
Kieran Argo
On rates, are you aware of any resources where is there published rates for given roles within the industry?
Helen Brunsdon
Well Bectu still do it. Bectu still do it. And also, I mean, I'm just as keen to look myself, sort of like that She Drew That always, you know, have done for a number of years, an annual salary review, you know, of what people's rates should be. And again, you know, there's factors to that: where you're based, you know, as I said, a number of experiences… What the production is trying to do, maybe they've got factors that causing that, they maybe have more benefits than others. And I also think that people are quite vocal when they worked maybe at the studio and they haven't enjoyed that experience. So maybe look on social media if there's somebody complaining about certain places that you might be considering approaching.
Kieran Argo
I mean, there are different levels of transparency. I think obviously with competition in the industry, some people are guarded about what their rates are. There are, I know, some companies that have different rate cards for different forms of production. I know, some of the bigger companies, I think, would have a rate card for feature films, would have a rate card for commercials work. They'd have a rate card for the less, say, the smaller budget projects, the short form stuff for example.
Helen Brunsdon
Yeah, but producers do talk to each other as well. So it is, you know, sort of like, you know, in the same way that if you're a writer, the agents speak, there are writers' rates, for example, that the Writers Guild, you know, you can look at places that if you're a writer out there and editors and, you know, sort of, there's different roles. So I'm always highlighting these - there's lots of roles in animation. So not everybody needs or wants or wishes to be an animator.
Kieran Argo
You helped contribute to that wonderful careers map that ScreenSkills produced, didn't you?
Helen Brunsdon
Yeah, we did and we tried to make it sort of sustainable longevity. So will it still survive in a couple of years time? So we tried to make it generic as you've just highlighted. There's lots of techniques in animation. So we were trying our hardest to make it generic in that sense. But obviously if you wanted to learn more about a stop frame, you might look elsewhere. And there's nuances than should we say to different techniques. And again, studios might have different names for roles.
And I am always highlighting that as a good resource as part of your pack, you know, of resources that ScreenSkills do.
Kieran Argo
If anybody would want to find that, they can go onto the ScreenSkills website and look under, I think it's under the careers or you can maybe search for career maps because there's different career maps for different parts of the industry. So there's one for film, there's one for animation, etc. So it's a useful resource.
Helen Brunsdon
It is and I highlight that, you know, we might have people listening that are considering doing that straight up to A-levels, you know, so it's worth having a look at what junior positions are through to senior.
Kieran Argo
If you are setting up your new animation company, Helen Brunson Studios, tomorrow, what top tips would you give for how to, if anybody, what would you expect? What would make you sit up and take notice of somebody's approach to you for wanting to work in your new studio?
Helen Brunsdon
I think it's a great question, Kieran. And I want to set that studio up, of course, if I had lots of money. But I would be looking if I'd be, well, there's quite a lot. I think people, we may discuss this later on, but I think we can talk about soft skills as one, you know, sort of one area to discuss. I think to stand out from the crowd, should we say, if somebody is applying for roles, then I think they do have to have a good website. I think we do look at websites, just to do a little bit of research about people. A variety of showreels, so don't just have the one showreel maybe have a different nuance to different showreels. I think you can put disclaimers in about how much you know about the industry or say your likes and dislikes.
And I think in covering letters or emails, you can say how much you know, sort of like if you're writing to a particular company, you know, which isn't necessarily mine, you could write and say how much you've enjoyed their past productions, you know. So I think there's lots of things that people do, but don't underestimate what a good portfolio, which you have to be prolific about. You have to have a really good portfolio and keep building on it and having a good website as I've said.
Kieran Argo
One of the frequent requests I get is from people frustrated about how to increase their visibility. And I always go back with some networking suggestions. I mean, for me, think LinkedIn would be an absolute must for anybody, because that seems to be the business-to-business kind of Facebook, isn't it? Where a lot of conversations are ongoing about pressing issues and everybody sort of seems to go to LinkedIn to announce their new projects, you know, so any new animation projects are just getting off the ground. Once they've been greenlit and things are underway, they do a big announcement on LinkedIn. And I'm sure people are probably inundated with I can come and work for you, requests.
Helen Brunsdon
Yeah, I think you're right. I think, and I certainly look at LinkedIn, that's definitely the place to look. I would highlight though, that sometimes I don't always “link in” with somebody if I haven't met them. So that might be something to be aware of that somebody might not have accepted your invitation. And it might then mean that you might have to sort of like find a networking opportunity to find them otherwise, you know, or speak to them.
Kieran Argo
Such as?
Helen Brunsdon
Well, I always tell people to volunteer at places like the Children's Media Conferences next week, CMC, that everybody talks about in Sheffield. There's some fantastic, you know, animation festivals around the country that people could volunteer at and some arts festivals in general. I'm always saying that our industry speakers, you know, you might find yourself at a local arts festival. There isn't necessarily got animation there, but maybe they grew up there and they go back to talk. So it's definitely just keeping on looking at who's speaking where, when, and whether you could get there. I'm aware though that that requires travel or expenses to do that. And that it might be that you have the means of doing it yourself. So... But a lot can be done online and from the comfort of your own home, I have to say, doing research.
Kieran Argo
And I think it's getting out of your comfort zone, isn't it? It's getting the courage up to engage maybe in a thread of conversation that you see that's interesting on LinkedIn, because there are often short debates and threads that fall down under somebody's comment or some news. There'll be quite a lively debate going on. So, you know, if you do have an opinion, you know, depending on how controversial you want to be or not, you know, whether you agree with somebody. You know, if you want to engage with people, that's another way of getting yourself known is to see yourself as somebody who's willing to have a nice, healthy, positive discussion about things.
Helen Brunsdon
Yeah, that's right.
I do tell people that if you want to get involved in that, then again, read up on our industrial strategy, our newly released industrial strategy. Get up to date with maybe the different reports that you can freely read out there to get used to the workforce or get used to reading. Obviously, it's a given you have to sign up for ScreenSkills’ website because there's so much information on there. Or maybe even look at different sectors. Again, I'm thinking ScreenSkills there, you know, because we do talk amongst the creative industries about the similar challenges we all face. So, you know, get genned up on all the different, you know, news, should we say, and lobbying and advocacy work that trade organisations do in our industry. If you're interested in that.
Kieran Argo
I think that's a really valuable suggestion there because I think the more that you know about the industry and the challenges and what the industry as a collective body through trade bodies such as Animation UK, the more that you understand what is going on just in a sort of geographical terrain way, then you're more capable of engaging in conversations around that.
And there's ways of engaging and thinking of new ways of talking and doing things. And that can only come about through quite a holistic approach to the animation world.
Helen Brunsdon
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we could be forever mentioning, but, there's Women In Animation, there's Animated Women UK, there's quite a lot of forums and groups. If you don't want to go to a big group, go to a smaller group, you know, and just again, where you're based, just check out. And if there isn't one, set one up. Yeah.
Kieran Argo
And there's bound to be, if you're near a large city, there's undoubtedly going to be animation gatherings, just as a sort of show and tell opportunity. So you can get to go along and meet like-minded people who share your love for animation at those kind of events. It doesn't have to be a stuffy formal event. It can be just a gathering in the back room of a pub, whereby you get a drink and get a chance to meet other animators.
Helen Brunsdon
And you don't know who you're going to meet. So I think that probably leads quite nicely onto maybe those environments where our industry is based on communication at the end of the day. It is about working with people and, it is, people quite rightly have a laugh, have a good time, but actually the professionalism within the industry is really, really key. So I feel that not enough gets said about that. So even if, you know, that maybe you think, I don't fancy networking, then it is part of how we get noticed or part of how we start to build relationships with the industry and the key members within it.
Kieran Argo
This is kind of what soft skills is about, isn't it?
Helen Brunsdon
Yeah, exactly.
Kieran Argo
Your personality, your ability to work with people, because it's such a collaborative enterprise making animation, you need to communicate with your coworkers a lot more than you maybe anticipate. Soft skills are really important, aren't they?
Kieran Argo
Let's just define “soft skills” just in case anybody's not sure what we're talking about.
Helen Brunsdon
It is communication. It's being able to take a responsibility for, you know, sort of like for your actions, should we say, and how you conduct yourself in a workplace. I think one of the soft skills that I try to highlight is that, if you move through the workflow and you're working in different roles, you will get feedback. So how do you deal with that? You know, you have to listen to that, be able to take feedback, constructive and positive, negative, and be able to work through that to be able to improve. So those are the soft skills for me.
And if you were at a festival or you were at an industry gathering or you were in an interview or coming into reception of a studio, depending on things, is about, you know, being able to communicate who you are and why you're there and give a good first impression. At the end of the day, we're humans, we kind of go off first impressions and so, and I think obviously, as an industry, we are getting better inclusivity and diversity and so everybody is welcome but I do think everybody has to take note of being able to introduce themselves and be able to talk to people.
Kieran Argo
I think some of these soft skills are covered in some of the readily available courses that are free on the ScreenSkills website. I mean, it's communication skills, being able to do active listening, trying to understand what's being said and getting to the meanings and trying to understand what the real meaning is. Because misinterpretation is often a problem and as you say, it's being able to learn through communication. Because no matter what position you're in in a production, it's an important position. You know, you might be at a sort of entry level role, but if you fail to communicate or you fail to pass on a bit of information that could have a significant impact on the overall production floor that could have delays in the schedule and have knock-on implications for a budget. It's communication skills being absolutely paramount. It's a very valuable area to look at and I look at myself in those areas as well. I often feel I need to improve in areas and I'm in my mid-50s, you know.
Helen Brunsdon
Well, you you're right. I was going to say that we're saying this, like a lot of people do, because of what we've experienced or what we have made, maybe, you know, with me, I've made those mistakes in the past. So we are saying this, you know, with kindness to say, don't fall down the same traps as we have, try to sort of like learn really. And I was also going to say, yeah, working with people.
You know, and it is about, as somebody said, “it isn't flagged as an opportunity. You've got to read it as an opportunity.” Opportunities find you, but maybe it's whether you realise it's an opportunity. So if you meet somebody from the industry and they say, “Oh, you know, here's my card” or “here's how you get in touch with me.” You have to then say, “I will get in touch with you” and make sure that you do. That is an opportunity to start a conversation.
Kieran Argo
And I think it's a great skill to try and push yourself in terms of, if you feel you're quite an introverted person, is to try and find the courage to make that connection with somebody professionally. Because if you're shy, it really is quite a barrier to make that, take the initiative to start a conversation. But it can pay dividends, can't it?
Helen Brunsdon
Yeah, absolutely. And we have been there. There are a lot of, you know, sort of like great stars of our industry that are incredibly shy, you know, and they have managed to make a great career out of the content or the output that they do with being, you know, with being that. So, yeah, I think everybody has had that. Yeah.
Kieran Argo
Absolutely.
Helen Brunsdon
I was going to highlight another resource that I came across the other week.
It was, if anybody's interested, because we always talk about wellbeing, don't we, in the workplace these days? And there was a great loneliness report that I read, and this is for everybody. And I found it fascinating. I think it was the Film and TV charity. I hope I've got that right. And it was really fascinating about what people of all ages, because our workplaces are made up of various ages, working on productions and loneliness can hit everybody. So it's worth a read as well.
Kieran Argo
And I think that's particularly pertinent, particularly relevant with the fact that so many companies now are not, they don't have bricks and mortar, they don't have a studio to speak of. It's all done remotely. I know of a few studios that are 100 % remote working. So the in-real-life way that it used to be pre-COVID, whereby everybody just got together a lot more frequently.
I mean that has implications for your wellbeing, your mental health. If you're a very sociable person, I find it must be very challenging to just be stuck in your own space and not having that, what do they call it, the water cooler chat.
Helen Brunsdon
Also an element in the work that you produce, you don't learn the shortcuts that we might know, that I learnt through being in an office environment like yourself. And so you do have those moments where you are looking over somebody's shoulder going, “is that how you do it?” And you don't have that working remotely, but it does have its own benefits as well. A lot of people are thriving from it and I think it's unleashed, it's unlocked quite a lot of potential for lots of people. It depends on you, isn't it? Yeah.
Kieran Argo
It’s that balance of distraction and other activity going on around you, which is a learning experience because you do learn from what's going on around you all the time, but it's also your ability just to have that control of your environment as to your productivity can benefit from that as well.
Helen Brunsdon
Yeah, and having the best, you know, the most up-to-date equipment and posture and physical, you know, sort of wellbeing in terms of working from home, you know, having not leaning over your bed and hunched over a laptop, you know, so you have to declare that really, you know, so you have to have a good environment to work at home.
Kieran Argo
I forgot to mention to listeners that you're on the Animation Skills Council as well, which is the way that ScreenSkills operates is that all the funds, so the industry pays in a small bit of their production money on each production, and then that brings up a big pot of industry money. And then we at ScreenSkills try and identify where that money is best spent to upscale people and to address skills and talent shortages. And that's all done through the Skills Council, which constitutes up to about 20 people of key industry representatives from production companies and producers. And they get to decide and feedback on all the ScreenSkills activities.
So, I mean, do you think in terms of the future of skills and training? How can you see things improving to try and be optimistic?
Helen Brunsdon
Well, first and foremost, paying into that Fund is crucial going forward to help maintain all the fabulous work that you guys do at ScreenSkills. I think what's really interesting about the work that you've done there is that it can appeal to new entrants through to more established industry workers. So that's what I'm always keen to see the variety of tailored support that you can get for the industry through different courses. So that's what I would say. But it's crucial. I mean, I think we've just got to look after each other is the main thing is why paying into that Fund is that I'm always fascinated to hear by all the other studios and the studio heads that are represented on that council to hear what they're doing or where they suddenly see some gaps in that they can't recruit certain roles. It's always really, really fascinating. And that is the exchange of knowledge that we, that I live by that we can just then pass on and be good ambassadors for trying to get people to pay in, but also encourage people to take up the training. There's so many unique opportunities to go and do some online training, some e-learning. And I think that is invaluable, but you may not know that. That it is invaluable until you've done it, until it comes into your mind, know, sort of whenever that pops up again, you know.
Kieran Argo
And before we finish, I guess we must plug another organisation that we're both involved in that hasn't really got much to say about itself at this stage, but hopefully over the next year or two, there'll be more things for people to buy into. And that's the Alliance of British Animation Exhibitors. All that people can see at this stage, at this time, which is early July 2025, depending on when you're listening to this, is I think there's an Instagram page and a holding card on the old British Animation Awards website. But the idea is that we're going to develop that. And just to give a bit more information, the Alliance of British Animation Exhibitors is representatives from all of the animation festivals throughout the UK. Constitutes from small local events up to the more established big international events.
So the idea is that we can champion short British animation films and really fly the flag for British work at home and abroad.
Helen Brunsdon
Yeah, that's right. I think our art form is so huge, you know, it sort of touches on all different sort of right parts really, of different techniques, experimental, indie, you know, through to your studio works that doing large scale feature films. Because again, we set up that group, didn't we, as a group, just to have that exchange of talking to one another. To overlap but also encourage, support, share and just sort of like see where the challenges are coming from over the next few years. So it's a fantastic group. I mean, I feed in because obviously my big love is short films and all the work I do for the BFI at the moment is running through my blood. Short films is in my veins, as you know. So and that's why I love to see all the top people from all the festivals come together and chat.
Kieran Argo
Yes, because I love the fact that for the last, I think, what was it, three years? The Short Form Animation Fund has been running through the BFI?
Helen Brunsdon
Yeah, since, yeah, yeah, and we've put through 20 films, you know, that we're currently on round three, and they're fantastic films. They put us back on the global stage at festivals and they've been, you know, it's sort of like they've been earning their keep or putting their money where their mouth is, whichever the saying is, Kieran.
Kieran Argo
Yeah, yeah, no, it's brilliant. It's really reintroducing British animation onto the international stage is what I would do.
Helen Brunsdon
Because my, you know, just like very quickly, sort of like my route up through animation was very traditional through art and then I did an animation degree. So I think that's where my love has continued for it. So yeah.
Kieran Argo
Well, that's fantastic. We covered a fair bit there. I'm sure we could carry on talking for another hour or so easy.
Helen Brunsdon
Absolutely, absolutely.
Kieran Argo
Helen, I mean, it's been wonderful to chat with you. Just on finishing on that BFI short form animation fund, where do people go to find out more information about that?
Helen Brunsdon
The BFI website. I mean I know it's closed at the moment, but keep an eye on what the BFI do, you know, BFI network is out there doing short films, so not all the funds are closed, not all of them are closed, you've just got to keep looking back at websites to see what's available and whether you're eligible.
Kieran Argo
Brilliant, brilliant. Well, thank you ever so much for your time.
Helen Brunsdon
Thank you for having me. It's been great.
Kieran Argo
It’s been really informative and lovely to chat to you again.
Helen Brunsdon
Thank you, Kieran and thank you, ScreenSkills. Thank you. Bye!
Kieran Argo
Speak to you soon.
In conversation with Eline van der Velden
Eline van der Velden
Hi, I'm Eline van der Velden and I run Particle 6, is an AI production studio.
Matthew Walsh
Thank you for joining us today to talk about all things children's and Particle 6 and evolving technologies within the production space. I wonder if we could just start by telling us a bit about your own background and your journey, how you got into the world of production via some other routes, I believe. And then in particular, children's TV.
Eline van der Velden
Yeah, I mean, it was not easy. I'm not going to lie. I had no connections. I wasn't born in this country, so I didn't know anyone. I came here to go to performing arts school, which I did at Tring Park when I was 14 years old. And so I sort of had to fend my way around, you know, the UK and try whatever I could. I studied physics at Imperial College after finishing the performing arts. And I then just, you know, got internships at production companies and tried to get in here and there wherever I could to learn and soak up as much as I could about the industry. And I was also a YouTuber, so I was making lots of content online and that sort of digital side came quite naturally to me. And I had a show called Miss Holland, which was picked up by the BBC. And so that's how I slowly got into the industry then nobody would take my commissions because the digital tariffs were so low. And so they encouraged me to, you know, as I was producing them online already to just set up my own production company and carry on. So it was a digital production company from around 2014. in 2023, we converted to become an AI production company, I see that becoming the future. And we really want to specialise in being the absolute best out there and using that new technology. And it really marries up my creative and my technical skills together, which I love.
Matthew Walsh
Perfect blend of both your interests, I think. And we'll come on to talk about a bit more about the production company and the technologies that you've helped use in those productions a bit later on. But I just want to pick up because part of your journey is that you are a member of the Children's Skills Council at ScreenSkills, working with members from across the industry and production spaces to help support and develop training programmes. Just wondering if you could tell us about your involvement in that. How did it come about and what does it involve?
Eline van der Velden
So I was making a lot of content for the BBC for a long time for children's and for bite size and BBC Teach. And I didn't actually know about the Children's TV Skills Council or ScreenSkills for that matter. And it was only when we started doing a Sky Kids project that I really dealt, took a look into it because we had to pay our fee, obviously, our donation. And then I was like, my goodness, this is amazing. You know, we got this placement and they were fantastic and they become part, they all became part of the team. And, and then I was invited to join the skills council and I thought, yes, this is a great initiative. You know, if I'd known about this, because I had such a tough time getting into the industry, life would have been a lot easier if I'd known about this. And so I just want to encourage, you know, young people and people at all stages in their careers to, you know, look into ScreenSkills and upskill that way.
Matthew Walsh
And one of those programmes that was a result of this development and a result of the work with the skills council was Dream big, which is a big new entry initiative. And what was your involvement in that?
Eline van der Velden
So we took part in the Dream Big programme last year and we've got a wonderful employee out there called Louise. We also got another one through another placement who is brilliant development producer. I mean, I find the people I get through ScreenSkills incredible. what's great about the placement is they do the training and then they subsidise the placement for a bit. So as an employer, you're also incentivized to take someone on. And it just the relationship just develops very naturally and they naturally become an employee over time.
Matthew Walsh
That's really good to see that through line that there is a progression even from a new entrance standpoint, they can take part in one of these training programmes, get relevant training and the placement and then hopefully make a more secure placement by the end of it, which is great.
Eline van der Velden
It works for both parties so well because they get training, which helps them. It helps us as employers that they get training and you don't have to think about it. know, it's taken care of. yeah, works very well.
Matthew Walsh
And these trainings kind of often reflect the state or the changes in children's TV, which has obviously changed, like a lot of different sectors has changed massively over the past decade or so. How have you seen the changes in terms of storytelling or perhaps area focus when it comes into the council's objectives even?
Eline van der Velden
Yes, I mean we're in huge period of flux right now. I think the last 10 years have been already in flux because we're moving into more of a digital world and people have to adapt to you know not just knowing what would work on CBBC or Sky Kids for example but also what would work online and so you have to always think about all the platforms at the same time and think about you know thumbnails and titles and or all these, the first five seconds, you know, things that you wouldn't normally have thought about when you're doing traditional broadcast. And then also now in the last few years, AI, you know, coming in massively and changing things around, changing the process. There's so much to upskill on right now for everybody. I think now, now is the time to really focus on that upskilling.
Matthew Walsh
That upskilling element, is that kind of informed by the change in viewing habits and platforms that come around? And you've mentioned AI, obviously, and we'll go into a bit more depth about that in a second. But when it comes to skills specifically and people working within children's TV, the changes in the ways that people consume the content, has that led to a change in how the content is being created?
Eline van der Velden
Yeah, because I mean, you wouldn't produce the same way if you were making something for TikTok as you would for a traditional broadcaster. And depending on what the length of the programme is as well, it's very different. You know, it also comes with its problems, these new platforms, because obviously monetization is a lot more difficult. And so the budgets available for all these things are also less than they used to be. And so you have to be much more nifty and efficient with your budget in order to produce the same quality that you used to. And so that's where a lot of that upskilling goes. People have to be much more multidisciplinary. You know, they have to be able to, to, you know, edit, also do motion and also, you know, as a producer, you have to be able to write, but also do development and maybe generate some AI stuff and do a sizzle reel and edit a little bit. So there's a lot going on and you need to be much more skilled overall, I think, than before. can't just specialize in one thing.
Matthew Walsh
Developing like a broad toolkit of skills really benefits you basically rather than siloing on one in particular. this kind of building this skillset and realising the changes in habits and the tools and production methods, did that kind of inform your idea to create particle six and create more of a scientific creative approach to filmmaking and content?
Eline van der Velden
So I think when, when I got those digital commissions, from BBC three, you know, because the budgets were so low for us, by the way, they weren't low because we'd never been paid and, we were producing stuff for YouTube already with no budget. So any budget was, was better than nothing, right? it's all relative, but you do have to be quite efficient, scientific, analytical in order to produce, content that's for such low tariffs. can't just do it the traditional way. You can't just hire loads of people and you have to be really methodical. And so we developed a special methodology then for digital production and now have developed a special methodology for AI production in order to work with those new budgets and to bring the highest quality programmes to the screen. And so all that budget is available and visible on screen.
Matthew Walsh
How would you describe these new innovations and methodologies in working with AI?
Eline van der Velden
Yeah, so I always say, you know, it's not people think about it as, the generative side right now, you know, where it's all an AI, but it actually started very different. So it started in pre-production and post-production. Those were the two sides of production that you could really optimise first. So in pre-production, we optimise, you know, call sheets, risk assessments, any pre-production you know, scripting, we aid it and it's all done together with the human. So we're very ethical in our AI use. It's all done collaboratively with the human. The AI doesn't want to write any scripts by itself. Let's put it that way. It doesn't want to do anything by itself, right? You really need to force it into doing what you want it to do. And it's still a very creative, collaborative process. In post-production, you know, you can optimise sound, languages lip syncing, there's so much you can do. And then also obviously you can generate entirely using AI now. So there's just lots to learn on how to use those tools at every step on the way in order to do a lot more with less people in one specific discipline. Doesn't mean that you have less people overall, but it means that those people who are working, because we are actually hiring, are doing more projects at the same time. So the output, productivity of each person becomes higher. That's the difference. And that spins the same way since the eighties. The productivity of us already as humans is probably five times what a human was in the eighties. And I think our productivity would go up to 10 times what a person in the eighties was with all these new tools.
Matthew Walsh
Quite a reassuring message to kind of hit home really is that it's about working with the technology rather than being kind of in fear of being replaced by it.
Eline van der Velden
Yeah, I really tell people like the fear is what's going to hold you back. If you start working with the tools, you'll realise there's nothing to be fearful about because this tool is not going to do anything without you. So it really is all dependent on you.
Matthew Walsh
Yes, that's what it comes down to, isn't it? The human desire to create will always be there and it can be aided and made better. And obviously that will have a massive impact on the costs and reducing that cost in production spaces. As well as that initial costs factor, what other areas do you think can you see being down the line that the impact of AI will have on productions and possible new technologies on their way?
Eline van der Velden
Yeah, so I think it's a real positive. I mean, I'm super positive about it because I think it can make you more creative. We're not bound by any real life filming. We're not bound by any budgets. With generative AI, can, know, creativity has no limits. And that is incredible, especially for children's content, I think there's also going to be new ways to exploit your IP if you're an IP owner. So for example, we're working on a technology where an IP owner can, you know, plug into our system and you can do a FaceTime call with people, you know, with, with the characters. So there's additional revenue streams for IP holders. So I think there'll be lots and lots of new opportunities and new really creative ideas out there.
Matthew Walsh
Yeah, and how do you think these changes are likely to be reflected in both by the educators in the working in the sphere or possibly the Children's Skills Council itself with probably sharpening a lens in a different direction?
Eline van der Velden
Yeah, I think the Council will, I'm sure, be looking into this. I know young people are already training up in these fields. So yeah, I think everyone will start to learn. It will take some time and it'll take some encouragement for people to upscale in this direction. It's taken 10 years for people to realise that digital is actually a thing and it's not gonna go away and it's really important and we need to know how to communicate in the digital space and how the content create digital for digital is very different to traditional broadcast. And the same thing will go again is people will learn about AI. They'll realise that there's no limit to the creativity you can have. And we'll see, I think it'll be a renaissance of incredibly creative children's content coming in the coming 10 years. So I'm thrilled to see that develop.
Matthew Walsh
Exciting times on the horizon. And just finally to wrap up, kind of along the same message, what would you say to freelancers or crew or anyone looking to upskill within children's TV? Is there anywhere that you would point them to kind of help them learn about these technologies?
Eline van der Velden
Yeah, I would become an AI expert straight away because there's lots, going to be lots of jobs in that field. So get yourself, you know, and you don't need to pay for any courses. You can just find YouTube tutorials on everything, you know, start with Chat GPT or Deep Seek. then, you know, that's just start with just, you know, being the best prompter there is then move on to Sora or VO three, start becoming the best prompter for video imaging images and video generation. And if you're an editor, you know, start plugging in all the tools into your Premiere Pro, whatever you use in order to upskill to just use it. And, you don't need to be on a programme to upskill. You can do this every day, but obviously if you, you know, the programmes with ScreenSkills are amazing. Great.
Matthew Walsh
Great. Thank you very much.
Eline van der Velden
Lovely to be here. Thank you.
Eline van der Velden
Cheers Eline, nice to speak to you.
Animation and Children’s TV ‘Dream Big!’ programme returns for 2025
Matthew Walsh
Taking a quick pause here to share some exciting news. You heard Eline mention the Dream Big programme just there and applications to take part in the next Dream Big programme. If you're not familiar, Dream Big is a ScreenSkills funded programme all about helping people start their career in animation and children's TV. If you want to hear more about what it's like from people who've already taken part, check out episode six of the podcast. We spoke to a few graduates as well as members of the ScreenSkills team and the programme's training provider, Think Bigger. They gave us a real behind the scenes look at the impact the programme has already had and how it has helped develop careers. Here's a sneak peek.
Shelley Rees
So before they start at the host companies, they get an incredible whirlwind experience of the TV bootcamp.
Brandon Zapata
The training was really, really helpful. I didn't realise that being part of production was an option. I knew about animation and being an animator and that side of it, but never production. I didn't realise there was a completely separate thing and the training completely blew my mind because it went into so much detail, so many skills that we were taught.
Holly Kilvington
It really set you up to go straight into that company. It was the mentoring that went throughout the programme that was the most helpful. You always knew that there was someone at the end of the phone.
Jazmyn Barlow
It was fantastic. I got to see all sides of production from everything from the pre-planning all the way up to finishing the day we finished filming.
Who Am I with ScreenSkills’ Matt Brothers
Matthew Walsh
Welcome back to the ScreenSkills podcast, where we're now going to introduce you to another member of the ScreenSkills team in our Who Am I feature. This month, we're here from Matt Brothers and his work for the Animation Skills Fund.
Matt Brothers
Hi, my name is Matt Brothers and I'm the Film and Animation Coordinator at ScreenSkills. Along with our production liaison exec, Kieran Argo, my main role in animation is primarily looking after the Animation Skills Fund, which is one of the five main funds in ScreenSkills. We speak to producers, studios, companies and freelancers with the aim of securing contributions into the fund, equating to 0.5 % of their UK core spend of a production, up to a current cap of £55,400.
This income, typically totalling on average around £200k per year, goes towards everything we do for animation, from offering support back to the contributing productions themselves, to funding programmes and training. While the Fund, previously known as the Skills Levy, isn't mandatory, there is a wide understanding in the industry that a contribution should be standard industry practice, especially for any production benefiting from tax credits.
ScreenSkills are working closely with organisations like Animation UK, whose recently released manifesto argues for a mandated skills contribution to improve the skills and training landscape in the UK. We receive contributions from primarily traditional children's series, from studios and companies such as Magic Light Pictures, Aardman Animations, Sun and Moon Studios, Blue Zoo, Paper Owl Films, Karrot Animation, Tiger Aspect Kids and Family, just to name a few. As well as feature film projects, which we highly encourage due to their rarity and placement opportunities, and the occasional short film as well. The money received is used in a variety of ways. Contributing productions can access up to 60 % of their contribution directly back via our training programmes. For new entrants, we have the animation version of ScreenSkills' flagship trainee finder programme. We recruit a cohort of 30 new entrant trainees, skilled across everything from 2D, 3D, stop motion animation, storyboard, production and art, who can all be placed on productions for up to 24 weeks per placement, with £250 per week going back to the production for each trainee taken. We have also adopted more mid to senior level programmes too, such as Make A Move, where a production can nominate a candidate themselves who is ready to step up to the next career level and get between £5,000 to £10,000 back to support this career jump and director company training, where a production can utilise their available funding to commission bespoke training courses through us and our training provider list.
We also support Dream Big, the initiative run by Think Bigger, in which underrepresented new entrants are given specific roles within children and animation companies, with the focus on the next iteration being on trainee researchers, production coordinators and production assistants. Other training supported by the Animation Skills Fund in the past year has included four highly successful creative animation courses focusing on directing, producing, production management and leadership, layout training run by Lupus Films, the previous Dream Big iteration and webinar conversations detailing the experiences of animation production manager Omari McCarthy.
For anyone wishing to learn more, please do sign up to our newsletters and check out the animation hub on the ScreenSkills website. We are hoping to run Animation Trainee Finder again this year. While this is still to be decided, keep an eye out for details towards the end of the summer, either online or through the newsletter. Thank you very much.
Outro
Matthew Walsh
That's it for this episode and for series one of the ScreenSkills podcast.
We'll be taking a short break, so if there's anything you'd like to hear more about, do reach out and contact us at podcast@screenskills.com. If you want to find out more about any of the programs or topics we discussed, visit the website at screenskills.com and sign up to the ScreenSkills newsletter to be among the first to hear about any new training programmes. Thank you to all of our guests across the series for taking the time to speak to us, the Adobe Foundation, and of course to you for listening. We look forward to speaking to you again soon.
End credits
Carley Bowman
This has been a ScreenSkills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation, hosted by Matthew Walsh and Carley Bowman. It was produced and edited by Gabby Sharrock and marketing by Natalie Tandoh. The design and imagery was created by Gabby Sharrock.
In the ninth episode of the ScreenSkills podcast, launched in partnership with The Adobe Foundation, we turn the spotlight on all things animation and children's TV.
With the Children's Media Conference taking place in Sheffield, we joined the conversation by speaking to those working in animation and live-action children's TV. ScreenSkills' Animation Production Liaison Executive, Kieran Argo, sat down with BAFTA winning producer and Director of both Animation UK and the British Animation Awards, Helen Brunsdon, to explore trends, challenges and opportunities across animation.
We then hear from Eline van der Velden, producer and founder of Particle6, a production company at the forefront of using technological advances within production. She discusses her work as part of the children's skills council, her career and how she's adopting a scientific approach to help boost creativity.
Member of the ScreenSkills team, Matt Brothers, tells us all about the work of the Animation Skills Fund and we hear more about the landmark training programme offering vital entry points to animation and live-action children's TV, DreamBIG.
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